D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Micah Sweet]

That is a pointless exercise. It is a boundary you or even WoTC cannot enforce. You are doing something similar to trying to hold back the tide.
I mean sure you can enforce it at your table, and you can refuse to engage with game that step outside your boundaries, but the zeitgeist goes where it will.

I do not care how popular or influential WotC's version of D&D is. It is irrelevant to any discussion of quality or my playstyle preferences.

And any game designer can enforce boundaries. That's what game rules are for. They enforce boundaries, and ideally inform us of intended playstyles. The more clear those boundaries and playstyle suggestions are, the better that game is, generally speaking, for those who have that preference. Making your game "for everyone" just muddies the waters and ensures that no one gets what they want. Its a good philosophy for maximizing sales (WotC's overriding goal far beyond anything else), but not good for making the best game you can. I prefer every game designer try to make the best game they can, and market to those who would find fun in playing such games. If you do a good job at design and marketing, a reasonable degree of profit will come, and you can continue making the game you presumably want to make.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'd quibble a bit here.

The rules for 3.5 ex-clerics say

"A cleric who grossly violates the code of conduct required by his god (generally by acting in ways opposed to the god’s alignment or purposes) loses all spells and class features, except for armor and shield proficiencies and proficiency with simple weapons."

So while clerical spellcasting is tied to not grossly violating the code of conduct, it does not have to be an instant active deific surveillance state.

To me it more implies a type of geasa type of situation tied to clerical casting, an automatic thing outside of the god's direct control, not active intervention by the deity. A deity could take actions on their own such as intervening to take action against a wayward champion but this seems a bit different.

The implications for story purposes are mostly the same though, grossly violative stuff means no casting so no really corrupt priests in the good Pelorian hierarchy.

It would allow a number of schisms and heresies to exist though as grossly violating a code of conduct can be a high bar depending on the specific code which can vary significantly.

3.0 Deities and Demigods gave gods fairly focused omniscient sight into their specific portfolio areas of concern, so there is a separate deific surveillance state going on.

I like the idea of another god providing power to the heretics without their knowledge, leading to a situation where the faithful are confused that the heretics still have clerical powers, and the heretics feel they're on the right track because their powers still work.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

3.0 Deities and Demigods gave gods fairly focused omniscient sight into their specific portfolio areas of concern, so there is a separate deific surveillance state going on.

I was given to understand that other books reiterated the same principles.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I do not care how popular or influential WotC's version of D&D is. It is irrelevant to any discussion of quality or my playstyle preferences.

And any game designer can enforce boundaries. That's what game rules are for. They enforce boundaries, and ideally inform us of intended playstyles. The more clear those boundaries and playstyle suggestions are, the better that game is, generally speaking, for those who have that preference. Making your game "for everyone" just muddies the waters and ensures that no one gets what they want. Its a good philosophy for maximizing sales (WotC's overriding goal far beyond anything else), but not good for making the best game you can. I prefer every game designer try to make the best game they can, and market to those who would find fun in playing such games. If you do a good job at design and marketing, a reasonable degree of profit will come, and you can continue making the game you presumably want to make.

This is a game genre that came about by people hacking mechanics they had available and inventing new ones as needed and has been hacked at tables all over the world ever since. You cannot enforce anything. You cannot come to my table and make me do anything.
I can run the game as I want, accept, reject rules or setting assumptions to make the game my own, and so can anyone else. Nothing can be enforced.

 

[Clint_L]

Why does it matter how other people play the game at their tables? We are all consenting adults here, and it is no one else's business how we choose to play D&D! If it doesn't make sense to you, too bad. After all, you don't want them telling you how to play D&D at your table, and they tried, you would tell them to get stuffed. As you should!

What a silly argument this is. Just live and let live.

 

[Alzrius]

3.0 Deities and Demigods gave gods fairly focused omniscient sight into their specific portfolio areas of concern, so there is a separate deific surveillance state going on.

It wasn't just limited to their portfolio; it also extended to their worshipers, which necessarily includes divine spellcasters dedicated to them. The issue is that they can only remotely sense so much at a time.

 

[Maxperson]

1) WotC shouldn't offer an "out" for people who want to eliminate gods from the game. As best as I can interpret this, you have an opinion of what the game should be, and the fact that WotC even suggests other ways of playing exist is offensive.

Of course WotC should offer an out for people who want to elminate gods from their game. It would be unfair for them not to offer it, which is why they already do in the 5e DMG.

2) You mention the idea that worlds should follow rules. However, you ignore the fact that rules suggesting a being can be powered by belief in themselves may be internally consistent with the fiction of a given game, even if it would be inconsistent for another game that exists in a different fantasy/reality.

Powering your own clerical abilities has never been in D&D and would be inconsistent with D&D as it has been presented in any edition. I think it's a fine homebrew solution, but it should not be the default.

5) The idea that a god is different than a person, ignoring that in many fantasies gods started as mortals and attained godhood.

Allowing mortals to ascend one option for how you can homebrew your setting and it works fine. However, in no edition of D&D, even ones where mortals ascend, have mortals and gods been the same. They are in fact different. When a mortal ascends, the mortal changes significantly.

 

[Voadam]

It wasn't just limited to their portfolio; it also extended to their worshipers, which necessarily includes divine spellcasters dedicated to them. The issue is that they can only remotely sense so much at a time.

That remote sensing is a little bit different. They can actively choose to use a standard action to view some things but not automatically notice if their worshipers are violating codes of conduct or whatever.

Remote Sensing​

As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.
Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.

The portfolio sensing is automatic knowledge of some things.

Portfolio Sense​

Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present. Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people. Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have. Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have. When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

Portfolio: Every deity of rank 1 or higher has at least limited knowledge and control over some aspect of mortal existence. A deity’s connection to its portfolio gives it a number of powers.
Portfolio Sense: Demigods have a limited ability to sense events involving their portfolios. They automatically sense any event that involves one thousand or more people. The ability is limited to the present.
Lesser deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios and affects five hundred or more people.
Intermediate deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past for every divine rank they have.
Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have.
When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. For example, a demigod of the sea senses all tidal waves that threaten multiple villages, or a small or large towns. The deity knows where the waves are, but not what they look like or which direction they’re traveling.
Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

 

[mamba]

But, why?
To satisfy people who aren't at their table?

they can do whatever they want at their table, I doubt anyone cares, I know I don’t.

This is about the published rules, not what someone does at their table.

If in order to cover the widest possible variety of ideas your classes become incoherent, then for me the fix is to either restrict the classes to become coherent again (and add new ones to fill the resulting gaps), or to find an explanation that allows for the variety without becoming incoherent.

 

[mamba]

Conversely:

DMs getting to pull the plug whenever they want are wanting to have total control with no responsibility. Gods that can toy with mortals at their leisure.

Two can play at this game.

they can do that even when your cleric does not follow that god, and the DM can mess with you even without using any gods at all…