D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[DammitVictor]

Why does it matter how other people play the game at their tables?

Implicit in every argument that the narrative-- fluff-- description of a class is not rules-relevant and that classes only describe the discrete mechanical abilities of the class is an argument that they should be allowed to play like that at any table they sit down to. They are just as much trying to tell other people how they have to play, even more arrogantly and sanctimoniously than the people arguing for consistency in their games' magic/powers systems.

"Sure, go ahead and play the game as wrong as you want to."

Personally... I do not have a problem with divine magic being the exclusive province of Da Gawdz (I have hella problems with how D&D does this, but thats a different argument), with Da Gawdz granting every individual spell or with Da Gawdz granting a one-time clerical Investiture, or with the (IMO overly complicated) 1e rules described upthread. I don't have a problem with divine magic coming from the elemental-flavored kami or from the Primoridal Spirits of ruined Athas. I don't even have a problem with Clerics of philosophical ideals or the Mystaran Spheres, or even just "divine" magic just being a "White Magic" tradition compared to Wizards and Warlocks.

I just think that's a decision that should be made at the setting level, at the decision to design or play in any given official, third-party, or homebrew setting. The Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk are crystal clear on this matter, Dark Sun and Legend of the Five Rings are crystal clear on this matter... and if you want to "make an exception" you're not playing FR/GH or DS or L5R anymore, and that's fine but if I'm going to play in a homebrew setting, I'd prefer to play in a setting homebrewed whole.

A "Cleric" is a defined object, not just in the game rules, but in every game world that is based upon those rules. This trend to divorce every rules-object from its corresponding world-object is not good for the game, not even for the games of the people pushing it because it renders everything in the game-- you guessed it-- incoherent.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

I like the idea of another god providing power to the heretics without their knowledge, leading to a situation where the faithful are confused that the heretics still have clerical powers, and the heretics feel they're on the right track because their powers still work.

I tend not to prefer campaigns where the Gods are present and directly communicate with the people like a sovereign holding court. I much prefer far-removed Gods who have influence over their Divine Domains rather than the World they've ascended beyond. I prefer that they are only able to influence the world only through the work of third parties who have faith that they serve the God's doctrine, or through omens. There are so many stories that can't be told if Gods have a stranglehold on the actions of mortals, able to punish them directly for implementing their free will. I like factions and heresies and free will.

I also don't like avatars where the Gods can be themselves while walking the world. A Chosen/monster that is imbued with an unhealthy portion of that God's power, perhaps even thinking they are the God, is one thing, but I don't like the God themselves being able to walk the world.

I prefer when Divine magic is not being gatekept by Gods, rather their religions are the primary way the people learn about Divine power, and the mortal clergy can offer training as a path to power and influence if the aspiring follower is down with the indoctrination. If the Church makes a mistake and trains a person who is secretly opposed to their values, that's a mistake on them, so they have to be careful who they let in to the clergy and train. Hence tests to prove their connection to the deity/domain.

However, I think anyone perceptive enough to the reality of reality to understand how they are personally connected to an Aspect/Domain/Portfolio of Influence, and have the unwavering faith in the importance of that Domain, can train to become a Cleric if they really have the Wisdom and will to do so.

--------------------

Regarding the OP, one simple mechanical reason for the other classes to have developed, is that the Cleric is Wisdom-based. Anyone with a low Wisdom isn't going to excel in the role, and if you want power, don't you want to excel at it? If they don't have that inherent perception of how Material reality interacts with the cosmic Divine Energies beyond the Astral Sea, there are other paths. Intelligence to puzzle out the Arcane mysteries themselves, and Charisma to either brute force their will on reality, or influence extraplanar forces to offer them power, etc. However, Divine Magic as an easy way to power is just one perspective that not everyone will get. Not everyone is comfortable, convinced, or faithful enough to believe so much in a Divine pattern to exert one's will to enforce it. Many people are filled with doubt, which is the enemy of blind faith.

 

[Alzrius]

That remote sensing is a little bit different. They can actively choose to use a standard action to view some things but not automatically notice if their worshipers are violating codes of conduct or whatever.

Right, but if it chooses a particular worshiper to be the subject of its remote sensing, the deity will know everything that worshiper does from then on. So if that particular worshiper commits a violation of their faith, they'll know it in real-time, and can react accordingly. Which means that particularly important worshipers are likely to be in their deity's awareness most of, or potentially all of, the time.

 

[Voadam]

Powering your own clerical abilities has never been in D&D and would be inconsistent with D&D as it has been presented in any edition.

D&D has varied a lot on what actually powers clerical abilities, sometimes saying gods, sometimes saying belief or faith, sometimes other stuff.

3.5 PH: "Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration."

4e had the ordination ritual granting the ability to wield divine power.

4e PH: "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper with out any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful."

Even 5e has varying descriptions. Mostly the 5e PH talks about clerics and gods but it also says:

"Harnessing divine magic doesn't rely on study or training. A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive sense of a deity's wishes."

5e paladin abilities are powered not by gods but by their oaths.

"By 2nd level, you have learned to draw on divine magic through meditation and prayer to cast spells as a cleric does."

"The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power-gods, the divine forces of nature, or the sacred weight of a paladin's oath."

 

[Micah Sweet]

This is a game genre that came about by people hacking mechanics they had available and inventing new ones as needed and has been hacked at tables all over the world ever since. You cannot enforce anything. You cannot come to my table and make me do anything.
I can run the game as I want, accept, reject rules or setting assumptions to make the game my own, and so can anyone else. Nothing can be enforced.

Of course not. Rules are a "soft" enforcement, but still an enforcement. Otherwise, why do people bother following them, or arguing about them?

 

[Voadam]

Right, but if it chooses a particular worshiper to be the subject of its remote sensing, the deity will know everything that worshiper does from then on. So if that particular worshiper commits a violation of their faith, they'll know it in real-time, and can react accordingly. Which means that particularly important worshipers are likely to be in their deity's awareness most of, or potentially all of, the time.

If the worshiper is in the top two to twenty worshippers/places/events that a god wishes to actively focus on the god can choose to actively watch them. Whether that is likely or not depends on the god, the worshiper and their situation, and other worshipers or stuff drawing the god's attention. A PC cleric might be in Odin's top 20 viewing concerns to monitor, maybe not.

As you mentioned above 3e gods have a limit.

A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.
Divine Rank Remote Locations
1–5 2
6–10 5
11–15 10
16–20 20
Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location (for example, after 1 hour has elapsed since someone spoke the deity’s name).

 

[Maxperson]

D&D has varied a lot on what actually powers clerical abilities, sometimes saying gods, sometimes saying belief or faith, sometimes other stuff.

3.5 PH: "Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration."

Right. Faith in something higher results in spells being granted to them by that something higher. They don't simply power their own spells by having faith in themselves.

4e had the ordination ritual granting the ability to wield divine power.

4e PH: "As a cleric, your deity does not directly grant you powers. Instead, your ordination or investiture as a cleric grants you the ability to wield divine powers. Clerics are usually formally ordained by existing clerics who perform a special ritual to do so, but on rare occasions a deity moves to directly ordain a worthy worshiper with out any sort of priestly hierarchy involved. What you do with your powers once you are ordained is up to you, although if you flagrantly and openly defy your deity’s tenets, you quickly earn the enmity of the faithful."

This is something from outside of the cleric granting the spells as well.

Even 5e has varying descriptions. Mostly the 5e PH talks about clerics and gods but it also says:

"Harnessing divine magic doesn't rely on study or training. A cleric might learn formulaic prayers and ancient rites, but the ability to cast cleric spells relies on devotion and an intuitive sense of a deity's wishes."

5e went out of its way to make the game easier on players, but even then that devotion and intuitive sense and all those prayers and rites simply allow you to draw on your god for spells. The preceding paragraph to the one you just posted says the following.

"Divine magic, as the name suggests, is the power of the gods, flowing from them into the world. Clerics are conduits for that power, manifesting it as miraculous effects. The gods don't grant this power to everyone who seeks it, but only to those chosen to fulfill a high calling."

So no amount of learning prayers and formula, devotions or sense of the deity's wishes, will allow a person to cast clerical spells if the gods don't grant that power to them. And they don't grant it to everyone who seeks it.

5e paladin abilities are powered not by gods but by their oaths.

This is only half correct.

"A paladin swears to uphold justice and righteousness, to stand with the good things of the world against the encroaching darkness, and to hunt the forces of evil wherever they lurk. Different paladins focus on various aspects of the cause of righteousness, but all are bound by the oaths that grant them power to do their sacred work. Although many paladins are devoted to gods of good, a paladin's power comes as much from a commitment to justice itself as it does from a god."

It comes from both and in about equal parts according to the paladin write-up in the PHB.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If the worshiper is in the top two to twenty worshippers/places/events that a god wishes to actively focus on the god can choose to actively watch them. Whether that is likely or not depends on the god, the worshiper and their situation, and other worshipers or stuff drawing the god's attention. A PC cleric might be in Odin's top 20 viewing concerns to monitor, maybe not.

As you mentioned above 3e gods have a limit.

A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.
Divine Rank Remote Locations
1–5 2
6–10 5
11–15 10
16–20 20
Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location (for example, after 1 hour has elapsed since someone spoke the deity’s name).

The funny thing is, if you subscribe to the "PCs are special and a different order of being from ostensibly similar NPCs" idea, then such gods are almost certain to be watching you specifically. You know, 'cause you're so special.

 

[Maxperson]

If the worshiper is in the top two to twenty worshippers/places/events that a god wishes to actively focus on the god can choose to actively watch them. Whether that is likely or not depends on the god, the worshiper and their situation, and other worshipers or stuff drawing the god's attention. A PC cleric might be in Odin's top 20 viewing concerns to monitor, maybe not.

As you mentioned above 3e gods have a limit.

A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.
Divine Rank Remote Locations
1–5 2
6–10 5
11–15 10
16–20 20
Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location (for example, after 1 hour has elapsed since someone spoke the deity’s name).

So just a minor quibble, there may not be limits in 3e as divine rank doesn't cap out at 20. If you look at the 3e Deities and Demigods, the ranks of divine power are as follows.

1-5: called Demigods
6-10: called Lesser Deities
11-15: Called Intermediate Deities
16-20: Called Greater Deities
21+: Called Overdeities and we don't know the limits, if any, of their power or abilities. Ao is in this category.

 

[Voadam]

So just a minor quibble, there may not be limits in 3e as divine rank doesn't cap out at 20. If you look at the 3e Deities and Demigods, the ranks of divine power are as follows.

1-5: called Demigods
6-10: called Lesser Deities
11-15: Called Intermediate Deities
16-20: Called Greater Deities
21+: Called Overdeities and we don't know the limits, if any, of their power or abilities. Ao is in this category.

Ah but it also says something about those 21+ divine ranks beings.

Rank 21+: These entities are beyond the ken of mortals and care nothing for worshipers. They do not grant spells, do not answer prayers, and do not respond to queries. If they are known at all, it is to a handful of scholars on the Material Plane. They are called overdeities. In some pantheistic systems, the consent of an overdeity is required to become a god.

So they are unlikely to use remote sensing to focus on any worshiper clerics to see if they are grossly violating the overdeity's code of conduct.