D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Minigiant]

There are some players who don't want any "hook" of control in them by the GM. In some cases it's because they've been badly treated by a previous (or current...) GM who was overly controlling and they fear this happening again. In other cases they simply want maximal freedom to do whatever they want in the game.

So no family, no relatives, and no code of behaviors that can't be wiggled out of.

That's what the rogues is for.

Ophan, edgy, street urchin rogue with no family, friends, lovers, or enemies but the LAW!

 

[Maxperson]

That's what the rogues is for.

Ophan, edgy, street urchin rogue with no family, friends, lovers, or enemies but the LAW!

Or any class but Paladin, Warlock or Cleric, really. 9 out of 12 PHB classes have no such hooks, so there are far more choices for those who want to be free of hooks than those who want to choose them.

If you don't want hooks, choose a class that is free of them. Don't try to take it away from the very few classes that do. A lot of us love those hooks.

 

[TwoSix]

Or any class but Paladin, Warlock or Cleric, really. 9 out of 12 PHB classes have no such hooks, so there are far more choices for those who want to be free of hooks than those who want to choose them.

If you don't want hooks, choose a class that is free of them. Don't try to take it away from the very few classes that do. A lot of us love those hooks.

But it’s important to remember that in modern D&D, those hooks are designed to drive narrative, not increase challenge. It’s a direct inversion of concepts like the AD&D paladin, where the classes were more powerful but their restrictions often prevented them from taking the most expedient path to victory.

A player-DM combination who choose not to use those hooks aren’t undoing some presumed challenge level or balancing feature in doing so.

 

[Irlo]

Or any class but Paladin, Warlock or Cleric, really. 9 out of 12 PHB classes have no such hooks, so there are far more choices for those who want to be free of hooks than those who want to choose them.

If you don't want hooks, choose a class that is free of them. Don't try to take it away from the very few classes that do. A lot of us love those hooks.

You can play ANY class with or without any hook you want, as far as I’m concerned. Not sure why you care what other players do with the classes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But it’s important to remember that in modern D&D, those hooks are designed to drive narrative, not increase challenge. It’s a direct inversion of concepts like the AD&D paladin, where the classes were more powerful but their restrictions often prevented them from taking the most expedient path to victory.

A player-DM combination who choose not to use those hooks aren’t undoing some presumed challenge level or balancing feature in doing so.

I don't see that as a good thing. I still believe narrative should emerge from what happens in the game.

 

[TwoSix]

I don't see that as a good thing. I still believe narrative should emerge from what happens in the game.

How is invoking the cleric’s diety or a warlock’s patron not “something that happens in game”?

 

[Maxperson]

You can play ANY class with or without any hook you want, as far as I’m concerned. Not sure why you care what other players do with the classes.

Nothing in my post can be construed as my caring what other players do in their own game. I'm talking about how things are written in the PHB.

 

[Maxperson]

But it’s important to remember that in modern D&D, those hooks are designed to drive narrative, not increase challenge. It’s a direct inversion of concepts like the AD&D paladin, where the classes were more powerful but their restrictions often prevented them from taking the most expedient path to victory.

A player-DM combination who choose not to use those hooks aren’t undoing some presumed challenge level or balancing feature in doing so.

Sure. I'm talking about the defaults. If another table wants to allow a cleric of a marshmallow, more power to them.

 

[TwoSix]

Sure. I'm talking about the defaults. If another table wants to allow a cleric of a marshmallow, more power to them.

And that’s fine. But in the past, I’ve seen posters say that not enforcing something like a warlock patron would actually be unbalancing, which isn’t true. It’s not like a warlock is anywhere near top tier, balance wise.

 

[Micah Sweet]

How is invoking the cleric’s diety or a warlock’s patron not “something that happens in game”?

What I'm saying is, I prefer those hooks be used in the challenge/balance method, and also as worldbuildibg tools. I don't want players to be able to ignore them because they want the super powers without the obligation.