D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Irlo]

Or any class but Paladin, Warlock or Cleric, really. 9 out of 12 PHB classes have no such hooks, so there are far more choices for those who want to be free of hooks than those who want to choose them.

If you don't want hooks, choose a class that is free of them. Don't try to take it away from the very few classes that do. A lot of us love those hooks.

Nothing in my post can be construed as my caring what other players do in their own game. I'm talking about how things are written in the PHB.

I contrue the bolded sentence to be telling me to chose a diferent classs rather than playing (for example) a cleric not beholden to the tenets of a divine power.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I contrue the bolded sentence to be telling me to chose a diferent classs rather than playing (for example) a cleric not beholden to the tenets of a divine power.

That's how I took it.

 

[TwoSix]

What I'm saying is, I prefer those hooks be used in the challenge/balance method, and also as worldbuildibg tools. I don't want players to be able to ignore them because they want the super powers without the obligation.

And that’s totally fine (and diegetic!) I just want to make clear that method currently is NOT in use for standard 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

I contrue the bolded sentence to be telling me to chose a diferent classs rather than playing (for example) a cleric not beholden to the tenets of a divine power.

If you've been following the conversation, the context of it is that folks don't want DMs having these kinds of hooks. That means that they DO NOT have a DM that will change things.

My responses are in the same context and no part of them is telling you what you should do in your game.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And that’s totally fine (and diegetic!) I just want to make clear that method currently is NOT in use for standard 5e.

Oh, I know very well that WotC doesn't agree with me. I just don't care.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

What I'm saying is, I prefer those hooks be used in the challenge/balance method, and also as worldbuildibg tools. I don't want players to be able to ignore them because they want the super powers without the obligation.

Before you repeat "superpowers without obligation" again, could you please read and/or respond to my post about why nontheistic clerics aren't any less free from obligations than theistic clerics are?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Before you repeat "superpowers without obligation" again, could you please read and/or respond to my post about why nontheistic clerics aren't any less free from obligations than theistic clerics are?

My point is that the concept of the cleric is theistic. I have no problem with someone playing a different class with a different narrative, but the cleric presumes a divine obligation, just like a warlock gets power from a pact with their patron, who shouldn't be giving them power for nothing.

Nontheistic clerics make no sense to me.

 

[Ancalagon]

Or any class but Paladin, Warlock or Cleric, really. 9 out of 12 PHB classes have no such hooks, so there are far more choices for those who want to be free of hooks than those who want to choose them.

If you don't want hooks, choose a class that is free of them. Don't try to take it away from the very few classes that do. A lot of us love those hooks.

Of course that's the sane response

... but again, free of any control. Including "avoid a few of these classes"

thankfully such players are rare

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

My point is that the concept of the cleric is theistic. I have no problem with someone playing a different class with a different narrative, but the cleric presumes a divine obligation, just like a warlock gets power from a pact with their patron, who shouldn't be giving them power for nothing.

Nontheistic clerics make no sense to me.

Yes, but no matter how many times you say that, "you're playing the game wrong" isn't a good or convincing argument. Especially since there has been a basis in this for decades in D&D. If a player wants to play a character that gains power from extreme belief in something that isn't a deity or devotion to a philosophy, what class would you recommend them to play? Would you tell them that they have a bad idea and they should feel bad for liking it, or would you slightly adjust your assumptions about the narrative of a fictional class to accommodate your player's character concept? Or would you go through the trouble of homebrewing a whole new class (probably poorly balanced, because this would be the first playtest) that you'll only use once or twice?

And, again, there is precedent in traditional D&D. That's what your precious "lore fidelity" means, right? There've been deity-less clerics in D&D for longer than I've been alive (the Athar and Athas's elemental clerics). Not to mention settings where they might be the core way to include clerics (Eberron, Ravnica).

In Eberron, it's possible that all Clerics are nontheistic. The gods have never been proven to exist, but divine beings and powers still do. Different people and religions have theories about where clerical magic comes from (the Vassals say that everyone is channeling magic from the Sovereign Host or Dark Six, the Blood of Vol says that everyone draws from their inherently divine blood, some say it comes from collective devotion, etc), but none are stated to be the official source of divine magic.

You're one of the people that makes a big fuss when WotC changes things from older settings. Wouldn't it be revisionist to deny the possibility of godless clerics in the rulebooks?

 

[Ancalagon]

. If a player wants to play a character that gains power from extreme belief in something that isn't a deity or devotion to a philosophy, what class would you recommend them to play?

So... a belief in what then? Surely not lasagna...

(a silly response, but I do genuinely ask)

edit part deux, where did my first edit go? I was noting that you are indeed quite correct that deity less clerics have been in D&D for quite some time. I believe it's been bothering some people for quite some time too...