D&D General If faith in yourself is enough to get power, do we need Wizards and Warlocks etc?

[Micah Sweet]

Yes, but no matter how many times you say that, "you're playing the game wrong" isn't a good or convincing argument. Especially since there has been a basis in this for decades in D&D. If a player wants to play a character that gains power from extreme belief in something that isn't a deity or devotion to a philosophy, what class would you recommend them to play? Would you tell them that they have a bad idea and they should feel bad for liking it, or would you slightly adjust your assumptions about the narrative of a fictional class to accommodate your player's character concept? Or would you go through the trouble of homebrewing a whole new class (probably poorly balanced, because this would be the first playtest) that you'll only use once or twice?

And, again, there is precedent in traditional D&D. That's what your precious "lore fidelity" means, right? There've been deity-less clerics in D&D for longer than I've been alive (the Athar and Athas's elemental clerics). Not to mention settings where they might be the core way to include clerics (Eberron, Ravnica).

In Eberron, it's possible that all Clerics are nontheistic. The gods have never been proven to exist, but divine beings and powers still do. Different people and religions have theories about where clerical magic comes from (the Vassals say that everyone is channeling magic from the Sovereign Host or Dark Six, the Blood of Vol says that everyone draws from their inherently divine blood, some say it comes from collective devotion, etc), but none are stated to be the official source of divine magic.

You're one of the people that makes a big fuss when WotC changes things from older settings. Wouldn't it be revisionist to deny the possibility of godless clerics in the rulebooks?

First of all, the Athar worship the Great Unknown (their belief that there is a god beyond the gods we know), and Eberron is it's own setting that does things in their own way (and is post TSR anyway, so doesn't really fall under my radar).

If I had a player who wanted cleric powers but didn't want to be attached to a divinity, I would go through my homebrew document to find a suitable class, and/or work with them to modify the class in a way that would satisfy us both. Because what we both want out of the game is important, not just what one of us wants.

 

[Maxperson]

Of course that's the sane response

... but again, free of any control. Including "avoid a few of these classes"

thankfully such players are rare

Yep. I've never met one during a real life game.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

So... a belief in what then? Surely not lasagna...

(a silly response, but I do genuinely ask)

edit part deux, where did my first edit go? I was noting that you are indeed quite correct that deity less clerics have been in D&D for quite some time. I believe it's been bothering some people for quite some time too...

The Silver Flame from Eberron (a sacred force of divine energy used to imprison powerful aberrations and fiends created through the sacrifice of thousands of couatls). The divine justice of Ravnica's Boros Legion. Or in whatever the Athar believe in. Or internal divinity/the power inherent in your soul. Or, if they are devoted and faithful enough and perform all the correct cleric rituals, literally anything they want, like how Kuo-Toa priests create their own gods that grant them cleric magic (not saying that it would be as easy as it is for a Kuo-Toa, just that the basic concept works other races too according to Planescape).

There's an anecdote in Exploring Eberron about a cleric that worshipped their shoe and got access to divine magic like any other cleric does. It's not common or easy in the setting to get divine magic like this, but it's still a possibility.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

First of all, the Athar worship the Great Unknown (their belief that there is a god beyond the gods we know), and Eberron is it's own setting that does things in their own way (and is post TSR anyway, so doesn't really fall under my radar).

If I had a player who wanted cleric powers but didn't want to be attached to a divinity, I would go through my homebrew document to find a suitable class, and/or work with them to modify the class in a way that would satisfy us both. Because what we both want out of the game is important, not just what one of us wants.

And the Greater Unknown isn't a god. It's an inactive divine force that people in the setting cannot prove the existence of. It's effectively identical in role to the pantheon of Eberron. The more likely answer to where the Athar get their magic from is their faith, as faith can do magical things in Planescape (such as killing people by convincing them that they don't exist).

 

[Clint_L]

edit part deux, where did my first edit go? I was noting that you are indeed quite correct that deity less clerics have been in D&D for quite some time. I believe it's been bothering some people for quite some time too...

Well, they should get over it and stop worrying about how other people have fun.

Does it affect them? At all? No. End of argument.

It's as if I was getting all hot and bothered because my neighbour doesn't watch TV the right way.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

My point is that the concept of the cleric is theistic.

It's not just theistic, it's Christian. Even when it it is representing "polytheism", it's polytheism through a Christian lens.

I can't explain why that's the case without breaking forum rules about discussing real world religions.

Anyway, do I think that is a good thing? No.

 

[Micah Sweet]

It's not just theistic, it's Christian. Even when it it is representing "polytheism", it's polytheism through a Christian lens.

I can't explain why that's the case without breaking forum rules about discussing real world religions.

Anyway, do I think that is a good thing? No.

Everything has to come from somewhere. If you want something different, there are plenty of other classes in the sea, and in your own imagination.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Everything has to come from somewhere. If you want something different, there are plenty of other classes in the sea, and in your own imagination.

The market for D&D is no longer predominantly Christian, and will become less so if it continues to grow, and therefore classes that rely on Christian tropes look increasingly odd.

Of course "power from faith" is a Christian trope. There are short steps from changing the object of faith from one god to one of many gods to a bowl of strawberries.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The market for D&D is no longer predominantly Christian, and will become less so if it continues to grow, and therefore classes that rely on Christian tropes look increasingly odd.

Of course "power from faith" is a Christian trope. There are short steps from changing the object of faith from one god to one of many gods to a bowl of strawberries.

Perhaps a different sort of divine class should be featured then. But of course, that would require (for WotC) that they relax their fear of social media, and expand what they design in a real way.

Good luck with that.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Perhaps a different sort of divine class should be featured then. But of course, that would require (for WotC) that they relax their fear of social media, and expand what they design in a real way.

Good luck with that.

The concept of "the divine" is largely Christian/monotheistic. It's largely used as a synonym for holy (set apart).

Although the origin of the word is the same as divination - foretelling the future.

But the best thing to do is to allow these concepts to evolve naturally, and try to keep up.