D&D 5E If the characters are super optimized should the monsters be boosted too?

Jessica

First Post
I know this probably doesn't help, but some editions(mostly 3.5 but I've seen it once in 4e as well) have this concept of low OP, mid OP, and high OP games. This sets the tone of the game that the DM wants to run and asks the players to either crank up the optimization or lower it so that everyone is not only roughly the same level of optimization but so it becomes easier for the DM to challenge the party. High OP games would probably involve optimized Fighters grabbing the crazy feat combos and Land Druids exploiting Conjure Woodland Beings and Halfing Beastmasters riding their pterodactyl companion and Aarakocra anything. Low OP games would probably involve people playing suboptimal race/class combos or subclasses or taking "fluffy" feats or picking spells that are more flavorful than crazy. Mid OP games would probably involve people playing strong competent characters without taking those extra steps to push them into the higher power levels. It's harder for 5e since it's still relatively new. Basically you are asking players to follow the spirit of your intentions and try not to go crazy with optimization(or really crazy with charop for a high OP game).
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
Our group is low level but our experience has been that "deadly" encounters really are deadly. We've had numerous deaths and near TPKs. But I think the landscape might change at mid and high levels. What I've observed as a player is that more monsters make the battle a heck of a lot harder than I would probably have anticipated. Also, going into another battle just after completing one big battle is tough.
It's a consequence (perhaps unintended) of Bounded Accuracy that the impact of being outnumbered is out of proportion with the impact of being outclasses. That is, one monster worth 10,000 exp is not as great a threat to the party as 10 monsters each worth 1000 exp. That's often counter-intuitive. You think (as the guy who wrote HotDQ must've, "wow 1/8th CR, better have at least 8 of them to remotely challenge the party." Nope, those 8 kobolds can quite easily TPK a first level party who'd roll over a lone CR 2 monster worth more exp - conversely, the party just might erase all 8 of 'em in a surprise round, if they happen to have the right spells prepared and just cut loose.

Long fights aren't necessarily fun
Not necessarily, but they can be interesting, and they can get the whole party involved, and allow for tactics to develop and play out. A campaign that consisted of only long, challenging battles would be monotonous, as would one that fell into a rut of short, trivial combats - or, worse, short, deadly ones. A system (and DM) needs to be able to handle a wide range of possible challenges. Short/trivial challenges are actually pretty easy to deal with, they don't take much time or prep and can even be hand-waved without losing much.

The real danger of a long fight being boring comes when the DM has to softball an encounter to avoid a TPK - you see this with inexperienced DMs all the time, they set out the encounter, the party starts getting beaten harder than he expected, so they start fudging the monster side of it - misses, low damage rolls, bad tactics, whatever - and if the PC side doesn't do much better, it can drag on and on in an increasingly desperate and improbable wiff-fest. Very sad.

and in 5e, they generally reduced monster hp from previous editions and increased damage
At low levels, they decreased monster and PC hps. At higher levels, they're as or more bloated than ever. Hit points - both HD and damage output - is responsible for more of the scaling this time around than attack/AC/saves (that Bounded Accuracy conceit, again). Not only is accuracy bounded, but it's higher for most characters, closer to 60-70% or so, instead of around 50 or a little better. So there's lots of hitting, and the primacy of 'focus fire,' surprise, and offense-over-defense strategies is encouraged.

Now, it's a matter of taste if you find fun or not, but even if you don't, at least you don't have to put up with it for long.

And, that's really the bottom line when it comes to the 'fast combat' ideal: it assumes that combat just is not the best, nor even a particularly tolerable, part of the game. Some combats will be fun, but not last; others will be awful, but mercifully brief. Either way, the fun of the campaign has to come from somewhere else.

Conversely, while more involved combats can achieve some tactical depth or drama to provide interest, that's also a matter of taste - and if you don't like it, well, they're /not/ over quickly. But, with Bounded Accuracy and the way 5e is tuned, that's not really an option. Any battle with enough opposition to take a while to resolve is going to be too deadly to run very often - and, thus also runs the risk of turning into a fiasco if the DM feels the need to softball it part way through.


Obviously, the more a game is tuned for 'fast combat,' the more profound the advantages accruing to system mastery may be, pushing it towards 'rocket tag,' if the DM responds by ratcheting up the offense on the other side, as well.
 

Psikerlord#

Explorer
Ok some background information:

6 PC's, all 10th level.

1 Battlemaster Fighter with Great Weapon Fighting and Sharp Shooter so good at both melee and ranged. Has a sword that was part of the module that is very overpowered giving +2d6 damage per attack.

1 Life Cleric.

1 Barbarian. Rage is ridiculously good giving resistance on all damage but psychic making the character very difficult to hurt.

1 Warlock.

1 Evoker Wizard.

1 Paladin.

They also have Protection from Poison items meaning a successful save results in one quarter damage from the dragon's breath weapons.

Average hit points for them all come in around 90 with the highest and lowest about 25 either side. The paladin, fighter, and cleric all have 20 AC.

OMG yeah giving a +2d6 dmg to a GWF is going to be totally broken. Should never have allowed that, doesnt matter what the adventure says - you're the DM, you are in the best position to assess what will break your game.

I have found the easiest and most effective way to increase fight dangerousness is to simply add more lower level monsters. If you base fight is 5 Ogres, make it harder by adding in an extra 10 orcs with great axes. That sort of thing.
 
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pming

Legend
Hiya!

I really disagree with this approach Paul. Any time DM adjudication turns into a kneejerk adversarial DM vs Players situation, is a bad situation.

DM "There is a +3 sword!"
Player "Awesome, I pick it up!"
DM "Just know that if you do, monster hp instantly scale up 300%!"
Player "Oh.. Ok, I guess I don't pick it up..."
DM "Are you sure? It's a +3 sword, it's really nice, does a lot of damage."
Player "No I'm good"
DM "OK wow, thats your choice player!"

You see how that's not really a choice? You notice how the DM gets away with seeming like he's a nice guy for giving a +3 sword that his players can't actually use without screwing themselves?

Disagreements are what makes life interesting! :)

Although I have to say, it's not a kneejerk reaction. Originally we weren't going to use Feats at all. I didn't use them for the first two or three "mini-campaigns" I ran when we were first getting our feet wet with 5e. None of us really liked how Feats worked in 3.x nor in PF...but those systems *forced* us to use them; you can't really play the game without significant modification if you drop all Feats from them.

Anyway, we tried another mini-campaign in which I originally said no, but then figured we might as well see if it actually is as bad as we remember (or expected). One thing with 5e...it plays differently than it reads. So, I told them "we can use feats". At 1st level there was only one human. A Thief. Taking the "optional" human stuff (we figured we were allowing feats, may as well allow other stuff too...). Bar none, she *easily* did the most damage per round, at a distance, with Crossbow Expert. She did even more when she was in close combat and could attack with her rapier. The wyr (kinda like a dragonborn) paladin did decent, but couldn't keep up with her damage-wise. It really gave us a bad taste right then and there. If one feat, in one situation could instantly unbalance the whole shootin' match... what would several humans with feats do? What about when they gain some levels and get even more abilities, spells and feats? Not a prospect we looked forward to. In the end, that mini-campaign ended up in a NTPK (nigh-TPK; everyone but 1 died).

This current campaign, again, we were hinging towards No Feats. But, again, we decided to use them...but with some major overall "tonal changes". The main one was "You can take it, but it will not make you significantly tougher; feats are going to be basically zero-sum additions to flesh out your character". Everyone agreed, and everyone is happy.

In your example, the difference is that the DM, me I guess, would be handing out the +3 sword. I don't have to do that if I see it as being too tough. No point to put a +3 sword into the game if all I'm going to do is "re-balance everything" to make that +3 sword zero-sum. However, allowing Feats is definitely not the same thing. With Feats, I, the DM, have no choice in the matter of if a PC 'gets' some particular Feat. I could just say "no to these feats: [insert list of feats]", but at that point there would likely only be about four or five feats left to choose from. Better to just say No Feats at that point.

So...my players agreed to my solution. Feats are in, but don't expect them to make a huge combat (or otherwise mechanical) difference. They are to be used mainly for "flavour and characterization". We take into account story-based benefits from some particular feat. For example, someone with Great Weapon Mastery would really know his Great Weapons; quality, type of material, what region it was likely made, maybe the name of the weaponsmith that made it, how often some particular weapon may have been used, how "skilled" someone wielding one is, etc. Basically, all the really cool non-mechanical stuff that is completely ignored since day one with Feats. Feats could have been really awesome to add depth to a campaign and a character...but the 3e designers figured "Naaa...let just slap on some mechanical adjustments and rules exceptions and leave it at that". Wasted opportunity. *sigh*

PS: I'd also hardly call "using a magic sword that doesn't give any bonus to hit or damage"..."screwing themselves". It's magic. That means it's harder to dull/break, maybe it glows, it likely has a past to it, maybe a name, and it can still hit creatures only "hitable" by magic weapons, etc. Just because it's not going to be useful for a better chance to hit and more damage doesn't mean using it is "screwing yourself". o_O

^_^

Paul L. Ming
 

Gnarl45

First Post
Am I missing something or should I be adjusting monsters to fit the optimized characters?

Yes of course. Encounter guidelines aren't an exact science (even in 4e). Would you really want to play a game where being smart doesn't make fights easier?

You can spend a lot of time tweaking the monsters to adjust the math if you want. An easier solution is to put higher level monsters. If you’re worried about the PCs gaining levels, you can even reduce their XP awards by 20%, 30%, or any amount you want. Your players won't know that anyways.
 

Inchoroi

Adventurer
Yes. If you allow feats, you have to adjust monsters for that. If you allow magic items, you have to adjust for that. The base game is built for no feats and no magic items. A DM must adjust if he allows them. If you allow characters to roll stats in such a way they have high stats, you have to adjust for that. If you want to provide a challenge to your party, you should adjust the power of monsters until you do so.

I've found that magic items don't matter at all; its the GWM/Sharpshooter feats that cause a bit of an issue.

The OP's problem is the -5/+10 mechanic from GWM and SS. Get rid of that, fights are more challenging.

But to answer the Q, yep, you're going to have to add more monsters (which makes optimizing self defeating, but then every long term player works that out after a while. At about which time they start making more interesting PCs as opposed to overpowered ones).

I agree, must to my wife's annoyance and great anger. Her Battlemaster with Sharpshooter does almost triple the damage as the rest of the party; thankfully, my group is very mature, and is able to take it since its not favoritism or anything. I do, however, bump up just the HP of the monsters, so they last a bit longer; I find that that balances things out quite nicely.

After this campaign is done, however, Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter are going bye-bye for good. (My wife is looking over my shoulder and I can see she wants to stab me...)
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
The OP's problem is the -5/+10 mechanic from GWM and SS. Get rid of that, fights are more challenging.

But to answer the Q, yep, you're going to have to add more monsters (which makes optimizing self defeating, but then every long term player works that out after a while. At about which time they start making more interesting PCs as opposed to overpowered ones, and end up having more fun).

I feel a nightmare coming on. The problem with GWM and S/S are just localized to particular optimizing groups. Perhaps Lord Vangarel runs optimized characters.
 

Celtavian

Dragon Lord
Lord Vangarel.

I ran through the encounters you are running as a player. I am a DM more often. GWM/SS if optimized for nearly double the damage output of a character using them. I'm sure your Battlemaster is novaing with the feats doing insane damage against the strongest fights. Your paladin is smiting. Your barbarian is crazy raging. Maybe he took Sentinel to control movement to keep the target attacking him or he gets an extra attack. All in your party is outputting damage far above what is expected for characters of that level.

Here's what you should try mathematically. Give it a shot and see how it feels, at least for major encounters.

1. Six player is 50% more than expect. Boost hit points of major creatures by 50%. Boost numbers of creatures by 50%.

2. Your players are hitting for 50% or more damage with GWM and Sharpshooter. Boost hit points another 50% for major encounters. I wouldn't worry about boosting trash. You don't care if trash goes down quickly.

3. I wouldn't worry about boosting damage output because a focus firing dragon can wipe characters out. You want to boost its durability.

In summary, boost hit points for major creatures like dragons, single powerful NPCs, and the like by a total of 100%. So a dragon with 200 hit points boost to 400. That should give your dragon more time to do damage and endanger your players. Boost encounters based on number of mooks by 50%. That should give your PCs a more difficult challenge. If your players are tactically strong, group most encounters together into single large encounters rather than let them take out weak foes piecemeal. If you do this, you should make encounters more difficult. You can ratchet up or down depending on how your players handle the boosted encounters.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Lord Vangarel.

I ran through the encounters you are running as a player. I am a DM more often. GWM/SS if optimized for nearly double the damage output of a character using them. I'm sure your Battlemaster is novaing with the feats doing insane damage against the strongest fights. Your paladin is smiting. Your barbarian is crazy raging. Maybe he took Sentinel to control movement to keep the target attacking him or he gets an extra attack. All in your party is outputting damage far above what is expected for characters of that level.

Here's what you should try mathematically. Give it a shot and see how it feels, at least for major encounters.

1. Six player is 50% more than expect. Boost hit points of major creatures by 50%. Boost numbers of creatures by 50%.

2. Your players are hitting for 50% or more damage with GWM and Sharpshooter. Boost hit points another 50% for major encounters. I wouldn't worry about boosting trash. You don't care if trash goes down quickly.

3. I wouldn't worry about boosting damage output because a focus firing dragon can wipe characters out. You want to boost its durability.

In summary, boost hit points for major creatures like dragons, single powerful NPCs, and the like by a total of 100%. So a dragon with 200 hit points boost to 400. That should give your dragon more time to do damage and endanger your players. Boost encounters based on number of mooks by 50%. That should give your PCs a more difficult challenge. If your players are tactically strong, group most encounters together into single large encounters rather than let them take out weak foes piecemeal. If you do this, you should make encounters more difficult. You can ratchet up or down depending on how your players handle the boosted encounters.
I agree with the above. Just clarifying +100% means hit points while +50% means numbers, yes? (That is, only add hit points to "elites" and "solos". For regular foes, it's more fun to add numbers. I think this is what C is saying; just making sure)

What I wouldn't do all that often is bunch encounters together. Not that I disagree with the notion isolated monsters are trivially easy to take down, but that it's hard as is it to maintain some semblance of the ideal adventuring day.

By this I mean our groups find challenging fights fun but trivial fights boring. This tends to limit encounters to way below the "stipulated" 6-8 a day.

In this context, I'm just wary of generally advising V to bunch together encounters. Keeping monsters apart through stealth and cunning should remain an attainable award.
 

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