If the mage spells are being weakened, what compensation is being given to the mage?

[the Jester]

(I have heard of Epic Feats being downgraded to normal Feats, so this would count as a change to the Epic Level Handbook ... ) after all this is over?

Where'd you hear that?

I know a couple of the non-Epic feats in the ELH (such as Manyshot) will be in the PH, but Epic feats??

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I do not remember where, unfortunately.
Therefore I cannot back that up with any proof.

 

[the Jester]

Hmm, well, I guess we'll just have to wait and see then...

 

[Sejs]

I must wonder if this move by WOTC will increase the sale of d20 products relating to spells and all things relating to spell casters?

If they prove to have kept an eye on balance, yeah.. probably will.

I mean, in some of the games out there currently being run, one can try the spells, feats, and prestige classes from books like Relics and Rituals, or from the Mongoose Arcane Books, for example.
I notice that in many of these books, the power of spells are greater at a comparable level to those given in the Player's Handbook.
(That spell in Relics and Rituals that will blast an entire country to smithereens - Denev's something - at 9th level, is pretty powerful ... )

That's part of the problem with allowing other parties to develop products for your game - they don't have to balance anything against the core product. I could publish a book called Spells, Wow! in which there's a level 3 spell that just kills and soul-rends 1 target per level AND their immediate families. No save. Totally overpowered compared to other 3rd level spells, but as long as I observe the requirements of the GL, I can publish it. And once it's out there, people can use it.

The good thing about these books, is that there is an actual human being at the user-end of things. The DM can fully say, 'No, you cannot learn or cast Denev's Fury, I do not allow that spell in my game as it's unbalanced, and from a campaign set book for a campaign world we don't play in.' Humans are handy that way.

Perhaps WOTC is trying to backload the power of mages? That is, they are trying to grant more of the character's power when he reaches high level, and less at low level?

Why should they need to backload spellcasters further? They're already inherrantly backloaded as it is, simply by the nature of how spells scale with increased spell level. Again, they're not tweaking the class, they're rebalancing problematic facets of the system.

...(I have heard of Epic Feats being downgraded to normal Feats, so this would count as a change to the Epic Level Handbook... ) after all this is over?

With any luck, alot. A good number of the feats from the ELH are very poorly places as such and would actually fit quite well in normal levels of play. Manyshot, and the formerly Epic-now-Greater Weapon Focus and Specilization are good examples of such.

I wonder if they will revise the Epic Spells, how they are created, and how difficult it is to cast them compared to what they can accomplish?

Don't know, don't care. Frankly, at Epic levels - if you don't play a caster.. just give up. Epic spells are so terribly, horribly, stupidly over-the-top powerful compared to anything any other class can do as to make playing a non-caster in an epic game nigh, if not totally, pointless. Sure, that epic fighter can whirlwind attack as a standard action against everyone he threatens, rather than just 5' away, and he counts as wielding a Holy weapon reguardless of the item's actual enchantment... but the wizard just called down 20 Great Wyrm Red Dragons which follow his orders, and then cast a 200d6 fireball as a quickened spell.

Who cares if they change how epic spells are handled - it's not like they're remotely balanced in reguard to the rest of the game anyway.

I do not remember where, unfortunately.
Therefore I cannot back that up with any proof.

As mentioned above: Greater (formerly Epic) Weapon Focus/Specialization, and Manyshot used to be epic feats and will be instead normal feats with the 3.5e revision.

 

[the Jester]

As mentioned above: Greater (formerly Epic) Weapon Focus/Specialization, and Manyshot used to be epic feats and will be instead normal feats with the 3.5e revision.

Oh, I just assumed that Greater WF and WS were going to be different than the Epic versions. Who knows.

Any Manyshot isn't actually Epic, it just appears in the ELH (like many other non-Epic feats are reprinted in there).

But you may be right about GWF and GWS; I've just been assuming there'd be some sort of difference between them and Epic WS/WF. I guess we won't really know for another month, though.

 

[Aaron L]

I assumed GWF and GWS were going to be +2/ +4, and EWF and EWS were going to be +4/ +8.

 

[Stalker0]

Well first of all, I can understand how some people right now think the wizard is getting downgraded a little. So far we the only spell changes have been downgrades, and spell focus was reduced-which is a biggie.

However, WOTC has already released two new spells, both of which I liked a lot. Both also have no saving throws- perhaps we will see more of these.

Also, I remember hearing it a while back, but maybe it was just a rumor- that the familar benefits were being increased, like +3 to something instead of +2.

Also, dragon 309 talked about a new feat: craft construct- so wizards and sorcs may be getting some new craft feats.

While I am a little perturbed about spell focus getting hurt, again like so many have said before, please wait to see the books before you declare all is ruined. There will be more new spells, let's give them a chance. Perhapbs WOTC will even boost some low level spells, so that the wizard is a little less backloaded. We will have to see.

 

[Bismark]

This will be my last post on the subject. Why ? Because in the end it doesn't matter who is right, only what is. WOTC have made their decision and apparently the majority agrees with them. I do not, that means I will no longer play, why play something if it no longer brings me pleasure? I'll just have to find another hobby.

You're leaving the game after 20 years, for what exactly? Because one set of buffing spells, a couple of bonuses, disintegrate--am I missing anything?

If this is enough for you to leave the game, I'm honestly not sure what to say. It seems extreme, and if your fun in the game was based on these things, I think you were missing out on a lot.

 

[rangerjohn]

No those are just some of the things that apply to this thread. As I said previously, most of the changes that have been announced I do agree with. Whether that is changing spells or DR etc.

 

[Felon]

While I am a little perturbed about spell focus getting hurt....

Again I ask--nay, I plead, I beg on bended knee--prithee, where did everybody hear about spell focus being diminished?

You're leaving the game after 20 years, for what exactly? Because one set of buffing spells, a couple of bonuses, disintegrate--am I missing anything? If this is enough for you to leave the game, I'm honestly not sure what to say. It seems extreme, and if your fun in the game was based on these things, I think you were missing out on a lot.

It's the whole melodrama thing I was speaking of earlier. Trust, me once RJ gets it out of his system he'll be fine.