D&D 5E If you could rearrange ability scores

[Ed_Laprade]

Appearance - Physical Attractiveness

(Outward display of health and symmetry as perceived by others)​

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So why would an Appearance score of X for a female Elf be the same for a male Dwarf, as seen by a Human? My preference is to just let the players decide what their characters look like.

 

[El Mahdi]

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[Evenglare]

I agree with you El Mahdi. Also depends on health of the character (as you originally mentioned), a person who is healthy is physically different from a person who is sickly.

 

[Warbringer]

Always though WHRP nailed it:

Strength: Defines a character’s brawn and physical strength. Strength is used to determine the outcome of a number of physical skills and tasks, such as climbing, breaking down a door, or hitting hard enough with a melee weapon to inflict damage.

Toughness: Defines a character’s endurance, constitution, and vigour. Toughness is used to shake off damage, recover from injuries, and resist the effects of toxins or the ravages of disease.

Agility: Defines a character’s dexterity, coordination, and gross motor control. Agility is used for a variety of physical skills and tasks, such as balance, stealth, picking locks, and the ability to wield ranged weapons with accuracy.

Intelligence: Defines a character’s general intellect, reasoning, and powers of deduction. Intelligence is used for a variety of academic and knowledge-based skills, and is important for arcane spellcasting.

Willpower: Defines a character’s nerve, discipline, and force of will. Willpower is used to resist effects such as fear, remain disciplined under trying conditions, and is important to controlling the Winds of Magic or generating favour with a deity.

Fellowship: Defines a character’s general charisma and ability to apply their personality. Fellowship is used for a variety of social skills and actions, such as charm and guile, as well as to beseech the gods when invoking divine blessings.

 

[Starfox]

Always though WHRP nailed it:

I assume you mean WHFRP.

In retrospect I seriously like WHFRP's (1st and 2nd ed) Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill attributes. No beating around the bush, here we give attribute ratings for your ability to hit in melee and at range. More and more I've come to dislike game value that are derived from other game values. Thus I prefer Ballistic Skill as an attribute to having a Dexterity attribute that, combined with other factors such as size and class bonuses, gives you a ranged base attack bonus. In my mind, this just creates a barrier to understanding, and also (because of the link between attributes and other skills) constrains your character - if you are good with a bow, you are not automatically good at dodging, sneaking, or tumbling.

In other words, I think games should define what abilities the game is about and then have players define those values for their characters, without a web of inter-dependencies.

Some might say that this creates characters that are unbelievable, because certain attributes are linked RL and should be linked in the game. My answer to that is that it is the player's job to create a believable character, and that when the game tries to force the player down a certain character concept decision-path, it usually fails. Reality is too rich and diverse to be captured by a simple attribute-skill relationship. Better not to try and codify this and let the player decide.

 

[Szatany]

I assume you mean WHFRP.

He does, and specifically 3rd edition. 2nd had 8 attributes, 1st had 14.

In retrospect I seriously like WHFRP's (1st and 2nd ed) Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill attributes. No beating around the bush, here we give attribute ratings for your ability to hit in melee and at range. More and more I've come to dislike game value that are derived from other game values. Thus I prefer Ballistic Skill as an attribute to having a Dexterity attribute that, combined with other factors such as size and class bonuses, gives you a ranged base attack bonus. In my mind, this just creates a barrier to understanding, and also (because of the link between attributes and other skills) constrains your character - if you are good with a bow, you are not automatically good at dodging, sneaking, or tumbling.

Yeah, I'm starting to lean the same way. There was something nice and simple in having straight up abilities for melee combat, ranged attacks, or spellcasting.

 

[Ed_Laprade]

The only reason I use it is there can be situations where someones physical attractiveness could matter. Most likely rare, but they do exist; and in such circumstances Charisma just doesn't cut it for me. It's an unfortunate fact, but physical beauty (usually defined by a perception of symmetry and proportion) is a factor we use in evaluating other people...even for those of us who say we don't. There's a real effect that beauty has on us, whether conscious or subconscious. That sense of symmetry and proportion is a general and unconscious indicator of health; and essentially, good genes. For the most part, I think that appearance of symmetry would likely be universal across the races...much like Gimli being awestruck by Galadriel's beauty in LotR. Sense of proportion, however, would likely be variable...but overall I think it works good enough for government work, and I can apply modifiers on the fly as needed for possible racial differences.

I agree with everything you've said, in principle. I just don't think it comes up often enough to bother with. And I should have gone with my first impulse to use a Kobold as the one looking at them. Especially as what constitutes physical beauty in a (D&D) Kobold is likely to be viewed as ugly for a Human, Elf or Dwarf. The facial features are just too different. And vice versa, of course.

 

[El Mahdi]

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[Starfox]

Considering Ghouls are Charismatic in DnD, Charisma cannot be a measure of charm and social graces. It is force of personality. A Dwarf with a high Charisma might aggravate elves MORE because he is even more boisterous than a lower-Cha dwarf, who is more timid.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Always though WHRP nailed it:

Strength: Defines a character’s brawn and physical strength. Strength is used to determine the outcome of a number of physical skills and tasks, such as climbing, breaking down a door, or hitting hard enough with a melee weapon to inflict damage.

Toughness: Defines a character’s endurance, constitution, and vigour. Toughness is used to shake off damage, recover from injuries, and resist the effects of toxins or the ravages of disease.

Agility: Defines a character’s dexterity, coordination, and gross motor control. Agility is used for a variety of physical skills and tasks, such as balance, stealth, picking locks, and the ability to wield ranged weapons with accuracy.

Intelligence: Defines a character’s general intellect, reasoning, and powers of deduction. Intelligence is used for a variety of academic and knowledge-based skills, and is important for arcane spellcasting.

Willpower: Defines a character’s nerve, discipline, and force of will. Willpower is used to resist effects such as fear, remain disciplined under trying conditions, and is important to controlling the Winds of Magic or generating favour with a deity.

Fellowship: Defines a character’s general charisma and ability to apply their personality. Fellowship is used for a variety of social skills and actions, such as charm and guile, as well as to beseech the gods when invoking divine blessings.

I've never played WHFRP, but to me that looks exactly the same as D&D's ability scores. What's the difference?