D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[FrozenNorth]

Players still have responsibility to do their part in making a great game. But DMs need to think, sometimes very hard, about how their choices, beliefs, biases, etc. shape what players will choose to do. Realism is cool, and usually worth seeking. But it can encourage stuff you don't want to happen, or discourage what you do want to happen, if you don't examine it critically. Players are the best people for the job of helping a DM critique her methods and (pre)conceptions.

This is so true. I would like to have more combats in my campaigns that are difficult and push the party to its limits. But I am very aware of the fact that doing so incentivizes players to choose classes, spells and builds that are focussed on winning combats, rather than anything else, and this less character diversity, rather than more.

On the plus side, making an effort to call for medecine, Insight, Animal Handling, Religion and Performance checks, as well as calling for social checks by people other the party face, encourages characters to diversify and to invest in less popular skills.

 

[Maxperson]

It says, specifically, that you can ready a move. It does not say which type of move so no, you cannot specifically ready crawling. Once more, just read the rules, don't invent what you think should be in there: "you choose to move up to your speed in response to it" and the example "If the goblin steps next to me, I move away". It does not say whether you intend to crawl, climb or even fly.

This probably the most bizarre reading I have ever seen. You can't crawl in combat because there are no actions for it. Well, guess what. There are no actions for swim, fly, burrow or stand up, either. Do you know why? Because all of those, and crawling, fall under movement. There is no, "I'll pull the lever" action, either. And lastly, crawl is in fact an action. How do I know? Because...

"When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise."

So I can in fact, by RAW, ready an action to crawl.

You need to be prone to do this. Otherwise no. Of course, you can drop prone as part of your move if you want. It's stupid, but you can.

Going prone takes no movement. So okay. I go prone and crawl. So what.

No, it does not, just read the rules. After that, when you do your move, if you want to drop prone and crawl, no worry.

I did. RAW allows it by both the move action, or the improvised action action.

The description of your action makes zero sense from your character's perspective,

You don't know my character or his perspective. Maybe he's a Shaggy(from Scooby Doo) coward who crawls to get away from things.

He is not playing your PC. You made a declaration of intent, the DM describes what happens. 100% standard loop.

No. The instant he narrates my taking an action other than what I declared, he has left narration and entered playing my PC. If I say I crawl and he narrates any other form of movement(without mind control or something), then he is in the wrong.

And once more, you are totally wrong here. You describe what your character intends to do, the DM describes the result, Standard loop.

Constrained by the rules, so if the rules say I get away, then he narrates my getting away. At least during a RAW discussion. DM rulings don't apply here.

And once more, you have failed to prove that you cannot interrupt instantaneous effects. I have proven to you that there is no such limit, and I've even given you other examples, like counterspell of counterspell. So once more, you are left with nothing to stand on but your personal wishes that it was otherwise.

Counterspell does not interrupt an instant effect, as I pointed out the last time you tried to give that as an example. Counterspell interrupts the spell while it is being cast. Once the spell is cast and the effect is happening, it's too late for counterspell to do diddley.

By the way, this is the Sage Advice on Sentinel. Note the following.

"Does the attack granted by the third benefit of the Sentinel feat take place before or after the triggering attack? The bonus attack takes place after the triggering attack. Here’s why: the feat doesn’t specify the bonus attack’s timing, and when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, 252). In contrast, an opportunity attack specifically takes place before its trigger finishes—that is, right before the target creature leaves your reach."

So let's unpack that.

The trigger for Sentinel is when the target within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you. According to your timing, the attack is the trigger and the attack roll and damage would all be other effects that are interrupted, so the PC with Sentinel would go first. Except it doesn't. The trigger the attack has to finish, which includes rolling to hit and then rolling damage if you do hit. The whole action has to finish.

Ready does not specify the timing. It just says after the trigger finishes. And we know from the Sage Advice(and common sense and the obvious readings of the rules) that means that the teleport and thunder happen before the ready action goes off and the PC readying the action gets to move.

 

[James Gasik]

Doesn't that contradict the "you can ready an action to respond to a perceivable circumstance"? So if I ready an action to attack a wizard who disappears (ie, they become invisible or teleport), I can't?

 

[Lyxen]

"When you take your action on your turn, you can take one of the actions presented here, an action you gained from your class or a special feature, or an action that you improvise."

So I can in fact, by RAW, ready an action to crawl.

And it's movement, and the DM will resolve it as such.

Going prone takes no movement. So okay. I go prone and crawl. So what.

It's stupid if you want to escape a blast. So your character is purposefully doing something that makes no sense in the world, just so that it can "prove" that the system works ? Is this really what you are advocating ? Just to be sure, you know.

You don't know my character or his perspective. Maybe he's a Shaggy(from Scooby Doo) coward who crawls to get away from things.

I think it's really sad that you have to invent things like that just because you have no ground to stand on in terms of rules.

No. The instant he narrates my taking an action other than what I declared, he has left narration and entered playing my PC. If I say I crawl and he narrates any other form of movement(without mind control or something), then he is in the wrong.

I'm sorry, but no. Let's do an exercise, please describe to me EXACTLY what you describe your character doing.

Constrained by the rules, so if the rules say I get away, then he narrates my getting away. At least during a RAW discussion. DM rulings don't apply here.

So you ARE trying to get away ? THen he describes it exactly the way I did. Because you are crawling as fast as you can, to get away. Otherwise, if you are not crawling as fast as you can to get away, then you are not trying to get away. It can't be both.

Counterspell does not interrupt an instant effect, as I pointed out the last time you tried to give that as an example. Counterspell interrupts the spell while it is being cast. Once the spell is cast and the effect is happening, it's too late for counterspell to do diddley.

I said "counterspell of counterspell".

By the way, this is the Sage Advice on Sentinel. Note the following.

"Does the attack granted by the third benefit of the Sentinel feat take place before or after the triggering attack? The bonus attack takes place after the triggering attack. Here’s why: the feat doesn’t specify the bonus attack’s timing, and when a reaction has no timing specified, the reaction occurs after its trigger finishes (DMG, 252). In contrast, an opportunity attack specifically takes place before its trigger finishes—that is, right before the target creature leaves your reach."

So let's unpack that.

The trigger for Sentinel is when the target within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you. According to your timing, the attack is the trigger and the attack roll and damage would all be other effects that are interrupted,

No, sorry, this is where, once more, you are wrong. Do you really have to say that "attack roll and damage" are effects ? Where in hell do you get this ? On the contrary, I go by the definition in the PH, what is an attack, page 193/194:

So, OBVIOUSLY, making an attack is all of that, and all of that including the attack roll and and the damage roll is part of making an attack.

The problem is that you don't understand what a ready action is. You only think in game terms and therefore in actions. But, unfortunately for you, the game is more clever than this and requires players to think in character, not as gamers. The triggers are not gamist actions that the character could not perceive like "making an attack roll" or "rolling damage" which has no sense in the game world. The trigger are PERCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES, things that the CHARACTER can see.

So, sorry but no, once more, you have failed to prove anything apart from the fact that you still can't understand the concept of "perceivable circumstance". These are not GAMIING ARTEFACTS, they are actually events in the game world that the characters can perceive.

And by the way, that was one of the problems with 3e, because they used a "condition" as a trigger, which caused many people to use it only for gaming terms, which made no sense in the simulated world. 4e, because it was extremely gamist, made an even worst mistake and used an action as the trigger, because 4e only worked in terms of gaming artefacts (which is why it felt so disconnected to some of us). But 5e did NOT make that mistake, it understands that for a character to react to something, it has to be something that actually is perceivable in HIS world, not in the gaming world of the player.

so the PC with Sentinel would go first. Except it doesn't. The trigger the attack has to finish, which includes rolling to hit and then rolling damage if you do hit. The whole action has to finish.

Ready does not specify the timing. It just says after the trigger finishes. And we know from the Sage Advice(and common sense and the obvious readings of the rules) that means that the teleport and thunder happen before the ready action goes off and the PC readying the action gets to move.

All of that for this ? Again, really sad, my trigger is "the caster disappears", has he finished disappearing ? Yes, because the boom ALSO occurs after he disappears, which proves that it (the disappearance) concludes.

Sorry, but once more, you can muddy it all you want, it does not change the fact that the trigger (the disappearance = the perceivable circumstance) has finished, and that there is no limit as to what can be interrupted.

 

[Lyxen]

Doesn't that contradict the "you can ready an action to respond to a perceivable circumstance"?

No, it does not, it's just (once more) @Maxperson using artefacts from previous editions instead of the 5e concept, and trying to impose on us that the trigger has to be an action. That was 4e, 5e has (rightly) changed that to a perceivable circumstance.

A disappearance or an attack is a perceivable circumstance, whereas an attack roll or a damage roll is not, these are just gaming artefacts that a character is not aware of.

So if I ready an action to attack a wizard who disappears (ie, they become invisible or teleport), I can't?

Of course you can, 4e allowed this only as a side effect of an action because that was the way the system worked, all about gaming artefacts even if it did not make sense in the simulated world, 5e is more immersed in the simulated world than this.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Doesn't that contradict the "you can ready an action to respond to a perceivable circumstance"? So if I ready an action to attack a wizard who disappears (ie, they become invisible or teleport), I can't?

It is super vague and if you take 'perceivable circumstance' in it's broadest sense, you can ready an action to happen basically at any point. I would be a bit careful with that. If I cue a ready action to 'when he raises his weapon to attack' can I cue it to go before the attack actually happens?

 

[Lyxen]

It is super vague and if you take 'perceivable circumstance' in it's broadest sense, you can ready an action to happen basically at any point. I would be a bit careful with that. If I cue a ready action to 'when he raises his weapon to attack' can I cue it to go before the attack actually happens?

We've actually had that case, but first, the important point is that it does not interfere with sentinel because the wording on the feat is specific, it's "makes an attack", not "threatens to make an attack".

Now, why we had that case was because it's probably the only house rule that we have, but we allow ready actions before combat has started (whereas, RAW, these are combat actions only), and they take effect during the first round of combat if the trigger happens.

So when we have tense negotiations that might degenerate, we have people watching for signs of attack like this and we allow them, but of course with the caveat that it still needs to actually be perceivable. For example, the strike might not be from a raised weapon, or might be a feint, or a way to force the other side to act and break negotiation first, and that keeps people on their toes about this kind of declaration.

The other part which we find helpful is the fact that if you ready a spell, you actually have to cast it and leave it hanging, which has multiple consequences, including but not limited to the fact that you have spent the slot even if the trigger does not happen, that it takes your concentration to do it and that you therefore cannot have many of the current buffs running, and the fact that the casting in itself is very noticeable (barring specialised feats and powers), so it's rarely appropriate for negotiations.

Finally, note that if someone raises a sword to attack and this causes the trigger of a ready action, nothing says anywhere that there might actually be an attack, so there is no commitment there.

So all in all, it works well, including with the type of trigger that you suggest.

 

[Maxperson]

And it's movement, and the DM will resolve it as such.

Yep. The only way he can do so in good faith is to narrate my crawling 15 feet during my readied action.

It's stupid if you want to escape a blast. So your character is purposefully doing something that makes no sense in the world, just so that it can "prove" that the system works ? Is this really what you are advocating ? Just to be sure, you know.

It doesn't matter if it's stupid. You argued earlier that things don't have to make sense if they are RAW. Maybe my character is crazy. I've played insane characters more than once over the decades.

I think it's really sad that you have to invent things like that just because you have no ground to stand on in terms of rules.

I'm sorry, but no. Let's do an exercise, please describe to me EXACTLY what you describe your character doing.

So you ARE trying to get away ? THen he describes it exactly the way I did. Because you are crawling as fast as you can, to get away. Otherwise, if you are not crawling as fast as you can to get away, then you are not trying to get away. It can't be both.

If you've ever watched crawling by an adult, even fast crawling, walking at a normal pace is just as good. Aaaaaand, I don't have to specify that I'm trying to get away in order to get away. Below are the requirements.

1. I be more than 10 feet away when the thunderclap happens.
2. I be immune to the damage somehow.

That's it. There are no other requirements for not being affected by the blast. If I crawl slowly away for my readied action and am more than 10 feet away before my readied action ends and the teleport and thunder resume, then as DM you don't get to narrate anything else without stepping outside the bounds of RAW.

So, OBVIOUSLY, making an attack is all of that, and all of that including the attack roll and and the damage roll is part of making an attack.

And just as obviously teleporting includes both disappearing and reappearing at the location. It's as indivisible as an attack.

The problem is that you don't understand what a ready action is. You only think in game terms and therefore in actions. But, unfortunately for you, the game is more clever than this and requires players to think in character, not as gamers. The triggers are not gamist actions that the character could not perceive like "making an attack roll" or "rolling damage" which has no sense in the game world. The trigger are PERCEIVABLE CIRCUMSTANCES, things that the CHARACTER can see.

The trigger has to complete, so disappearing is not the entire trigger since the entire teleport is exactly like the entire attack.

And by the way, that was one of the problems with 3e, because they used a "condition" as a trigger, which caused many people to use it only for gaming terms, which made no sense in the simulated world. 4e, because it was extremely gamist, made an even worst mistake and used an action as the trigger, because 4e only worked in terms of gaming artefacts (which is why it felt so disconnected to some of us). But 5e did NOT make that mistake, it understands that for a character to react to something, it has to be something that actually is perceivable in HIS world, not in the gaming world of the player.

Your position here is entirely gamist. Being able to break up an instant effect in order to take a much longer readied action, because rules! is a purely gamist argument.

 

[Maxperson]

No, it does not, it's just (once more) @Maxperson using artefacts from previous editions instead of the 5e concept, and trying to impose on us that the trigger has to be an action. That was 4e, 5e has (rightly) changed that to a perceivable circumstance.

I'm not using prior editions at all. Every last thing I've been arguing is purely 5e.

 

[Lyxen]

Yep. The only way he can do so in good faith is to narrate my crawling 15 feet during my readied action.

No, actually. With all your dithering, you still have failed to express exactly what your ready action is. But in any case, the DM is still entitled to asking "are you crawling as fast as you can to get out of the blast, or are you just crawling around to mess up with the system ?"

Because the second one is totally silly, as demonstrated below.

It doesn't matter if it's stupid. You argued earlier that things don't have to make sense if they are RAW.

I did that ? This is simply a lie. If you think I have, show it to me. But otherwise, please be nice and stop putting words in my mouth.

If you've ever watched crawling by an adult, even fast crawling, walking at a normal pace is just as good. Aaaaaand, I don't have to specify that I'm trying to get away in order to get away. Below are the requirements.

1. I be more than 10 feet away when the thunderclap happens.
2. I be immune to the damage somehow.

And pray tell where these stupid requirements come from and what they have to do with the declaration of what your character does ? A player does not make requirements, he just describes what his character is doing.

That's it. There are no other requirements for not being affected by the blast. If I crawl slowly away for my readied action and am more than 10 feet away before my readied action ends and the teleport and thunder resume, then as DM you don't get to narrate anything else without stepping outside the bounds of RAW.

Then, by exactly the same token, when declaring a simple move (outside of any ready action), you think that you are entitled to say "I make my move of 30 feet, but at a snail pace so that it takes me 10 minutes" ? Because that is exactly what you are saying here.

And you think that a DM has to accept that it's going to take you 10 minutes to crawl 30 feet as your move action just because you declare it that way ? Honestly, I hope you realise how all of this sounds.

And just as obviously teleporting includes both disappearing and reappearing at the location. It's as indivisible as an attack.

Prove it. You have totally failed to prove anything like this since the start of the conversation.

Just prove it. I'll be waiting.

The trigger has to complete, so disappearing is not the entire trigger since the entire teleport is exactly like the entire attack.

Prove it.

Again, while there is an explicit proof to the contrary in the spell description, we are still waiting, 15 pages later, for you to provide even a shred of proof. But please do continue...

Your position here is entirely gamist. Being able to break up an instant effect in order to take a much longer readied action, because rules! is a purely gamist argument.

The problem is that whether you present it from a rules or description perception, you lose. If it's rules, you lose since you don't have a shred of evidence whereas I have given you multiple times all the quotes that apply, and if it's from a narrative perspective, it's even worse, with your insistence that it does not work because you can choose to crawl at a snail's pace to avoid a blast.

So, instead of repeating the same thing over and over, why don't you actually find a proof ?

I'm not using prior editions at all. Every last thing I've been arguing is purely 5e.

Actually no, I had to point you towards the Ready action of 5e and its "perceivable circumstance" when you insisted that it had to be an action like it was in 4e (see for example this post, but there are many other instances).