D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

Indeed, it's a bit a question of principle at least on my part, of people trying to impose specific views on an open edition like 5e. They can do whatever they want in their campaign, but trying, without any support from the actual rules, to claim to have the only interpretation of the Holy RAW is something that I have a problem with. Free your imagination, free your game.
Should that be your goal, I don't perceive you are demonstrating that well. To my eyes you come across as peevish and divisive. Poor writing can certainly be an issue. Your insistence that the wording is vague to the point of multiple valid interpretations seems to me as purely argumentative. If the RAW is that vague, it should be fairly straight-forward to determine the RAI.

Not that you're the only one with an axe to grind.
 

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glass

(he, him)
All we know is that everything is resolved in a loosely defined 6 second combat round. In this thread I have pointed out that lightning bolts are not too fast to react to (certainly not 270,000 mph) because people can make Dexterity saves to avoid half damage.
I would not necessarily go that far. Although the lightning bolt itself may be incredibly fast, lightning always follows the path of least resistance. Therefore, for a caster to aim a lightning bolt, ISTM that the spell is actually preparing the path before the lightning itself is unleashed. That path forming, while quick, could be significantly be slower than the bolt itself. And if you can perceive the path forming, you can dodge it even if the bolt itself if too fast to dodge.

On the original question, I would probably rule that the caster takes the damage if they teleport within the range of the thunder. While the spell could be worded more clearly, in that it does leave room for a delay between disappearing and reappearing, that delay could be anything between Planck time and twenty-three years a few seconds. Therefore, I prefer to assume that if no delay is specified, then not delay occurs (or at least, no mechanically-meaningful delay). Introducing a delay would mean introducing a time period where the character did not exist anywhere, which is a can of worms I would prefer not to open.

_
glass.
 

Irlo

Hero
I would not necessarily go that far. Although the lightning bolt itself may be incredibly fast, lightning always follows the path of least resistance. Therefore, for a caster to aim a lightning bolt, ISTM that the spell is actually preparing the path before the lightning itself is unleashed. That path forming, while quick, could be significantly be slower than the bolt itself. And if you can perceive the path forming, you can dodge it even if the bolt itself if too fast to dodge.
I really like it when players and DMs imagine and describe spell effects that both match the mechanical spell descriptions and also provide interesting visuals or incidental effects. The idea of a perceptible path forming for a lightning bolt during spell casting but before completion is awesome. If it gets countered, the path fades away and no bolt appears.
 

James Gasik

Legend
I guess that could explain it, but again, the spell doesn't say that's what it does, so I have to assume it, like a blue dragon's breath weapon, are significantly slower than natural electricity.

Magic Missile, on the other hand, is either super fast, or has homing properties.

So I was watching a video on youtube, and while I couldn't find any source, I heard a claim that if you jump more distance than your speed you have to complete the jump on the next turn. If that's true, does that mean someone is hanging in the air for 6 seconds?
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
So we agree that a standard action which can also actually be something so quick that it can be done while moving or attacking is actually shorter than things can be done as reactions ?
Yes and no. Some things if done as a reaction, like a sword swing will be quick, but not instantaneous quick. If done as an action(no such thing as standard action), it will not be as fast as the sword swing reaction. Movement, though, isn't going to be any faster as a reaction than an action. Other things like movement wouldn't. You don't walk or run faster just because you are reacting, than you would if you were acting.
Is someone disengaging leaving reach ?
Does disengage specifically beat the general OA rule?
Is someone going invisible leaving reach ?
See above.
Is someone using etherealness leaving reach ? All of these could be crawling away. Speed has nothing to do with it. Again, you would have to prove that it's the "speed" of teleportation (I'm using quotes) since you have been unable to prove that there is any definitive "speed" to teleportation, teleporting 5 feet in "an instant" with its casting time of one action is actually probably much slower than stepping 5 feet away) that prevents the OA.
WOW!!!! You're seriously giving a bunch of false equivalences that have specific rules that beat the general one and then using those as some sort of proof that you are right?! That's some some chutzpah.

Teleport has no specific rule that beats the general OA rule, yet OA exempts it. Why? Because instantaneous speeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!
Again wrong, the PH says: "You also don't provoke an opportunity attack when you teleport or when someone or something moves you without using your movement, action, or reaction." Is someone pushing you causing you to move too fast too ?
No. That's example of a stupid rule for balance reasons. One that I have changed for my game just for that reason. There is no rational in game reason(unlike with teleport) why you would be attacked for walking 5 feet out of reach, but not being moved 5 feet out of reach at the same speed.
So it's indeed SPLIT into two (according to you, for me, there certainly can be three).
Consecutive is not a split. Teleport happens, THEN thunder happens. Two phases, no split.
So you have split an instantaneous effect into two instantaneous "phases", congratulations, you have contradicted yourself.
No. You're just so excited to try and catch me at one, that you're inventing contradictions that don't exist. ;)
 

Irlo

Hero
Teleport has no specific rule that beats the general OA rule, yet OA exempts it. Why? Because instantaneous speeeeeeeeeeeeeeed!
That's one way to explain it, but it's simply not rules-based. Nothing in the text indicates that it's the speed of the teleport that prevents the OA and there are other valid ways to explain it.

I suppose one can argue that there are no other valid ways to explain it, but that would be both unsupported by rules and strangely dismissive. After all, any change of position that doesn't use one's own movement is exempted from OAs, and no one would suggest that those all of those changes of position are instantaneous.
 
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Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's one way to explain it, but it's simply not rules-based. Nothing in the text indicates that it's the speed of the teleport that prevents the OA and there are other valid ways to explain it. x

I suppose one can argue that there are no other valid ways to explain it, but that would be both unsupported by rules and strangely dismissive. After all, any change of position that doesn't use one's own movement is exempted from OAs, and no one would suggest that those all of those changes of position are instantaneous.
With the exception of pushing, pulling, etc. against your will, every one of those other ways have specific vs. general rule reasons, as well as in-fiction reasons for existing. The former is there for balance reasons to prevent abuse.

There is only one exception that doesn't have a specific vs. general rules reason or balance reason for existing. Teleportation. Why is that? What other valid in-fiction reason is there for that rules exception to exist other than it happens too fast to react to?
 

Irlo

Hero
With the exception of pushing, pulling, etc. against your will, every one of those other ways have specific vs. general rule reasons, as well as in-fiction reasons for existing. The former is there for balance reasons to prevent abuse.

There is only one exception that doesn't have a specific vs. general rules reason or balance reason for existing. Teleportation. Why is that? What other valid in-fiction reason is there for that rules exception to exist other than it happens too fast to react to?

The teleportation exception certainly has balance reasons for existing.

My in-fiction explanation is that one can cast a spell, including teleportation, without dropping one's defenses. Simple as that.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
The teleportation exception certainly has balance reasons for existing.
What?
My in-fiction explanation is that one can cast a spell, including teleportation, without dropping one's defenses. Simple as that.
Then why can't you cast a spell and withdraw? Casting the spell isn't relevant, as that's not a trigger for an OA, just like you can walk circles around someone and not trigger an OA. Only leaving the reach is. Your in-fiction explanation doesn't explain why leaving reach via teleport doesn't trigger the OA.
 

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
I'm a little annoyed about that rule being in the DMG, but I guess knowing is half the battle, thanks Maxperson. I'm so used to the DMG being terrible, I never check it for rulings on anything, lol.
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Irlo

Hero
What?

Then why can't you cast a spell and withdraw? Casting the spell isn't relevant, as that's not a trigger for an OA, just like you can walk circles around someone and not trigger an OA. Only leaving the reach is. Your in-fiction explanation doesn't explain why leaving reach via teleport doesn't trigger the OA.
Balance reason: would you use a 2nd level spell slot to cast misty step to move 30' if you provoked OAs? The most prevalent use of that spell that I've seen in-game is to get away from enemies without provoking OAs.

In-fiction reason: The physical act of withdrawing, moving your feet and shifting your body to change postion and direction, leaves openings in your defenses. If you maintain defenses while you move (disengage) or if you maintain defenses while you cast and teleport, you don't provoke.
 

glass

(he, him)
I guess that could explain it, but again, the spell doesn't say that's what it does, so I have to assume it, like a blue dragon's breath weapon, are significantly slower than natural electricity.
It says that you can dodge it, and you can aim it, without explaining how either of those are possible. Your explanation only accounts for the former, so you still need some reason why you can aim it. My explanation accounts for both.

So I was watching a video on youtube, and while I couldn't find any source, I heard a claim that if you jump more distance than your speed you have to complete the jump on the next turn. If that's true, does that mean someone is hanging in the air for 6 seconds?
That was true in third edition IIRC (the completing the jump on your next turn bit, not the hanging in midair for six seconds bit), but I did not think it was the case in 5e.

I really like it when players and DMs imagine and describe spell effects that both match the mechanical spell descriptions and also provide interesting visuals or incidental effects. The idea of a perceptible path forming for a lightning bolt during spell casting but before completion is awesome. If it gets countered, the path fades away and no bolt appears.
Thanks! I just came up with it now, but is is certainly how I will describe lighning bolts from here on out. I guess I should say "thank you" to @James Gasik for the inspiration!

_
glass.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Balance reason: would you use a 2nd level spell slot to cast misty step to move 30' if you provoked OAs?
In a heartbeat. I mostly use it to move into combat or position myself better, not to get out of combat. Even if I did, though, there are MANY situations where it would be beneficial to take the attack. Further, it's one of the strongest spells of that level. Opening it up to OAs would better balance the spell and make it only really good.
The most prevalent use of that spell that I've seen in-game is to get away from enemies without provoking OAs.
My experience is the opposite, with paladins and bladesingers using it to get into combat. Move 30 or 40, teleport 30 and still attack. Even so, it's better to get one attack against you than multiple attacks.
In-fiction reason: The physical act of withdrawing, moving your feet and shifting your body to change postion and direction, leaves openings in your defenses.
Covered by withdraw action and spellcasting. Spellcasting doesn't provoke, and neither does withdrawing in a certain way. And you don't have to position your feet or shift your body to teleport.

There's no in fiction reason why teleport wouldn't other than speed that I can see.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
It says that you can dodge it, and you can aim it, without explaining how either of those are possible. Your explanation only accounts for the former, so you still need some reason why you can aim it. My explanation accounts for both.
Or you could just go with Occam's Razor and the simplest explanation is that the magic guides the lightning to the target, which is chosen before the bolt is released.
 

Irlo

Hero
In a heartbeat. I mostly use it to move into combat or position myself better, not to get out of combat. Even if I did, though, there are MANY situations where it would be beneficial to take the attack. Further, it's one of the strongest spells of that level. Opening it up to OAs would better balance the spell and make it only really good.
Fair enough. Lack of OAs affects balance, even if we don't agree on how well that achieves balance.
My experience is the opposite, with paladins and bladesingers using it to get into combat. Move 30 or 40, teleport 30 and still attack. Even so, it's better to get one attack against you than multiple attacks.
Understood. My experience differs.
Covered by withdraw action and spellcasting. Spellcasting doesn't provoke, and neither does withdrawing in a certain way. And you don't have to position your feet or shift your body to teleport.
That's what I'm saying. One can teleport without shifting position of feet and body, allowing the caster to keep up defenses. Thus, no OA.
There's no in fiction reason why teleport wouldn't other than speed that I can see.
You literally just said it. And you don't have to position your feet or shift your body to teleport.
 


Lyxen

Great Old One
No. You're just so excited to try and catch me at one, that you're inventing contradictions that don't exist. ;)

OK, at this stage, since the only explanation that you have for all your contradictions (e.g. you've never even been able to explain the length of a round in your game, since it's both 6 seconds and 6 s times the number of combattants) is that the game does not make sense, and since I think that I've been verbose enough on the subject, I'll leave you to all your imaginary rules and hope that you can still enjoy playing with that game that does not make any sense.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
OK, at this stage, since the only explanation that you have for all your contradictions (e.g. you've never even been able to explain the length of a round in your game, since it's both 6 seconds and 6 s times the number of combattants) is that the game does not make sense, and since I think that I've been verbose enough on the subject, I'll leave you to all your imaginary rules and hope that you can still enjoy playing with that game that does not make any sense.
Leave it or not, there were still no contradictions by me. ;)
 

glass

(he, him)
Or you could just go with Occam's Razor and the simplest explanation is that the magic guides the lightning to the target, which is chosen before the bolt is released.
That's not how Occam's Razor works. If you model requires two separate explanations for what mine covers with one, yours is the one that falls foul of the Razor, not mine.

_
glass.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
That's not how Occam's Razor works. If you model requires two separate explanations for what mine covers with one, yours is the one that falls foul of the Razor, not mine.

_
glass.
One explanation. The magic guides the spell to the target. End of single explanation. It's less complex than having slow lightning or dealing with grounding, etc.
 

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