D&D 5E If you use thunderstep but teleport less than 10 feet do you take damage?

[Maxperson]

First, my interpretation of ready and triggers are indeed correct, since no one has been able to provide another interpretation.

I have. Trigger is not defined as solely the visible thing. It's not defined anywhere. All it says is that it has to be perceivable and it has to finish. Under those circumstances if the trigger is part of a whole effect, it's perfectly valid for the remainder of the effect to have to finish as the trigger.

Second, if you read the SAC, the explanation is that the reason dispel magic does not work on instantaneous spells is that the magic has already gone beyond dispelling anyway.

Which is wrong under your interpretation. The magic being gone is due to it being done in an instant and not being around to dispel. If you can interrupt it until you are done, then it hasn't finished and is in fact around to be dispelled.

It's not explicitly said in 5e (and note that this view on instantaneous spells is not in the core rules, just in the SAC as an additional ruling), but it was much clearer in 3e that what dispel magic did was "end ongoing spells", and instantaneous spells are not "ongoing", they just flare for an instant and are gone, and with the instant that dispel magic itself takes to suppress the spell, anything is already gone, or has already effected changes on the world.

Right. Flare and are gone, so nothing to dispel. Under your interpretation they haven't flared yet and are still present to be dispelled. The spell IS ongoing for the instant that you've interrupted and delayed so that you can cast dispel magic.

Finally, note that it would not work on Thunder Step, since it would be cast AFTER the caster has disappeared, so you have no target anyway.

You don't target the caster, you target the effect and the thunder is in limbo right there for you to dispel.

I've already explained to you many times how this works, including descriptions by the DM and similarities with things like evasion, as well as explaining that a move in combat is not walking, at this stage, honestly, I will leave you with your personal conceptions that 5e is really badly written, that it makes no sense, and I will rejoin the crowd of people who just enjoy playing the game as designed, because they have fun with its simulation of the genre.

Honestly, you want to run at full speed and you still wouldn't have time to move even an inch before the thunder went off and the caster reappeared. Movement is not instantaneous, regardless of readied actions or not. Your interpretation is makes no sense as well. It's just nonsense that you agree with.

 

[Maxperson]

Yeah, right, a dice roll is perceivable by a character, you have 100% proved it.

At this point you are deliberately engaging in Strawmen and not my argument. Knock it off. Nothing I have said has been about perceiving die rolls and you know it.

This is what we've been doing for decades, without any problem, you are the only person that I've met who absolutely wants to screw the system with so many preconceptions that are not part of the game that you arrive at this totally nonsensical personal perspective.

So I've told you this before and will say it again now. I'm arguing RAW here and when I discuss RAW, don't make the mistake of thinking that's how I run my game. Sometimes I follow RAW, but often I run my game very differently. I just don't claim my changes are RAW like you are doing.

There is no RAW simultaneous action. RAW is sequential as I showed by giving you the hard rule on it. You've only shown me a fluff piece in support of your side of things.

It depends on the circumstances, are you telling me that everyone on all your battlefields perceive instantly everything happening everywhere at the same time ?

By RAW people on the battlefield notice almost everything unless the DM says otherwise during special circumstances.

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you.
However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

So, let me get this clear, you are saying that, in combat, you are allowed to make a declaration that "I am going to take 10 minutes to cover the distance allowed by my speed in my action" ? Is this what you are saying ?

No. I'm saying that every round for 60 rounds you can tell the DM that you are crawling. The end result is 10 minutes of battlefield crawling, assuming the pc isn't dead before then.

Yes, but his advice about behaving as a player is a very good one, and has nothing to do with homebrewing, why don't you go and have a watch?

Because I don't need to. See above on the difference between arguing what RAW allows and how I play.

Coincidentally, it's exactly what I described above.

Not really. Above you described adversarial DMing and just arbitrarily announced that the PC was dead. I'm saying that it's a freaking battle and the crawling PC will probably be attacked at some point and if he just stays crawling around, will ultimately end up dead. That's just a natural in game consequence of the action, not adversarial DMing which I view as always wrong.

 

[Maxperson]

As mentioned, I globally agree, just don't discount subtle spell or the possibility that the wizard is actually further away.



Again, no general disagreement, it's just that, in 5e, we make lots of local rulings due to circumstances.



As above, lots depending on circumstances, personalities, local laws, etc.

It's D&D! There are almost always exceptions. I'm talking about it would generally go down.

 

[Lyxen]

I have. Trigger is not defined as solely the visible thing. It's not defined anywhere. All it says is that it has to be perceivable and it has to finish.

It's really interesting that, after all this time and all the detailed quotations, you still get it wrong as defined by the RAW. The RAW is extremely simple, the trigger is a perceivable circumstance. Nothing more, nothing less, every rephrasing that you try to make a point just shows that you are biases in your reading and need to invent things.

Under those circumstances if the trigger is part of a whole effect, it's perfectly valid for the remainder of the effect to have to finish as the trigger.

And, once more, this is simple proof that you are INVENTING A RULE THAT IS NOWHERE IN THE RAW. It might be reasonable to you, but first it's not in the RAW by any stretch of reading it, and second it's not reasonable to a number of us. Why are you trying to IMPOSE that version, when you have no RAW support for it ?

Which is wrong under your interpretation. The magic being gone is due to it being done in an instant and not being around to dispel. If you can interrupt it until you are done, then it hasn't finished and is in fact around to be dispelled.

At some point in time, I hope you will finally read Thunderstep and understand that, even if things happen in an instant, they can still happen in a defined sequence. It's not hard, look at the spell description without bias and read: "Immediately after you disappear..." So is it impossible to imagine that Dispel Magic occurs AFTER the spell has really been cast ?

Anyway, if you are discussing the RAW, here you are, it's plain as day, it does not affect instantaneous spells. If we are discussing the RAW, why are you still discussing ?

You don't target the caster, you target the effect and the thunder is in limbo right there for you to dispel.

So now you can target limbo ? Yeah, sure. This is one more reason for Dispel Magic not to work on instantaneous spells...

Honestly, you want to run at full speed and you still wouldn't have time to move even an inch before the thunder went off and the caster reappeared.

Prove it. Tell me EXACTLY the distance that you can run in an instant. It has to come from the rules, as, as you point out frequently, we are discussing the RAW, so I don't want the estimate, I want the RULE that says how much I ground I can cover in an instant.

At this point you are deliberately engaging in Strawmen and not my argument. Knock it off. Nothing I have said has been about perceiving die rolls and you know it.

I'm sorry, but YOU are the one referring to the steps in making an attack. Once more, these steps are very precise:

1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.

Please tell me, in all these extremely technical steps, which are perceivable by a character so that an action can be triggered.

On the contrary, based on the ONLY definition of a trigger, a "perceivable circumstance", I deem it extremely clear that:

• The caster disappearing.
• A Thunder Boom

are perceivable circumstances BY THE CHARACTER.

So I've told you this before and will say it again now. I'm arguing RAW here and when I discuss RAW, don't make the mistake of thinking that's how I run my game. Sometimes I follow RAW, but often I run my game very differently. I just don't claim my changes are RAW like you are doing.

It's really interesting, especially considering the parts above, in which you are constantly INVENTING THINGS WHICH ARE NOT IN THE RAW. Just stop.

There is no RAW simultaneous action. RAW is sequential as I showed by giving you the hard rule on it. You've only shown me a fluff piece in support of your side of things.

It's funny how my extracts from the rules are fluff and yours are rules. There is no such thing, everything in the books are the RAW. Deny it.

By RAW people on the battlefield notice almost everything unless the DM says otherwise during special circumstances.

Prove it. Since we are discussing the RAW, SHOW ME THE RULE that says this. It simply does not exist, because it would be stupid for characters to see on the other side of a wall, for example. Or are there also rules that stipulate that there are no walls in fights ?

"In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you.
However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.

And you claim this as a basis that characters see everything that happens everywhere on a battlefield ? That is indeed funny.

Honestly, this is a very specific rule, that pertains ONLY to hidden character trying to approach in the open. The fact that you are alert does not grand you X-Ray vision, at the very list.

And as a simple proof, if the character above stays in cover, does the target automatically see him ? Be very careful about your answer.

No. I'm saying that every round for 60 rounds you can tell the DM that you are crawling. The end result is 10 minutes of battlefield crawling, assuming the pc isn't dead before then.

Ah, good, at last some progress. So we agree that you can't specify the actual velocity of any move that you make ?

Because I don't need to. See above on the difference between arguing what RAW allows and how I play.

Which, obviously, you don't abide to since you are inventing rules that are not in the RAW in every single post...

Not really. Above you described adversarial DMing and just arbitrarily announced that the PC was dead. I'm saying that it's a freaking battle and the crawling PC will probably be attacked at some point and if he just stays crawling around, will ultimately end up dead. That's just a natural in game consequence of the action, not adversarial DMing which I view as always wrong.

And, as a DM, I am perfectly justified in saying that, if you don't make your best effort to move as quickly as you can out of the zone of effect that you are trying to avoid by using the move of your readied action, you will not complete the move in an instant, therefore will be caught by it, and since you have only 1 hp left, you are dying.

The problem is that your thinking is way too rigid based on rules that you invent, in particular about the exact time that actions take. Unless specified clearly, the actions take exactly as much time as the DM determines, and very few are, unless specified in terms that are under the DM's control anyway, like exactly how long a turn is, or how long an instant is (and even a round is imprecise, only about six seconds).

This allows all DMs out there to be flexible in their description so that the actions declared by the players make sense. It's only you, who INVENT precise timing with no support from the RAW who indeed end up in non-sensical situations of rounds lasting 60 seconds when they should last about six, and creating contradictions. But these are not imbedded in the RAW, they are YOUR OWN rules.

And this, by the way, is the reason for me continuing this discussion, to show that these rules do NOT exist in the RAW, that they are not needed to play the game and that they are making sense. And some people have said that they had learned from this.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Actually, the rules provide the answer. All the effects (the disappearance, the reappearance and the thunder damage) are instantaneous because the spell is and because the thunder damage occurs "immediately after you disappear". So we obviously have "simultaneous effects", and the disappearance can be considered specifically separate from the reappearance (otherwise the description would have been "immediately after you reappear").

There already was a rule in the PH about simultaneous spells, but Xanathar made it clear: "Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature’s turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster’s turn, the person at the game table — whether player or DM — who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character’s turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first."

So, in that case, it's the player controlling the PC who decides, and he will probably decide that the damage occurs before he reappears.

Note that a DM can always make a different ruling, but as often the rules are fairly indulgent with the player and I would let them stand that way.

What I love about this is you can appear before you disappear.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

What I love about this is you can appear before you disappear.

How good, that not every little detail has to be covered by an exact rule, as we still have a brain to figure out what works and what not.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

How good, that not every little detail has to be covered by an exact rule, as we still have a brain to figure out what works and what not.

Have you read this thread? That's not necessarily the conclusion I'd make...

 

[Lyxen]

What I love about this is you can appear before you disappear.

Well, one can imagine the universe duplicating you first before destroying the original, so that he can roll-back and not lose you in case of a problem.

And from the wording, it's almost possible, it's just that it is still teleporting you, so the sequence is implicitly disappearance then reappearance. But I agree, it's only implicitly, not explicitly.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Have you read this thread? That's not necessarily the conclusion I'd make...

I only speak for myself in that case... and anyone who wants to be included.

 

[Maxperson]

It's really interesting that, after all this time and all the detailed quotations, you still get it wrong as defined by the RAW. The RAW is extremely simple, the trigger is a perceivable circumstance. Nothing more, nothing less, every rephrasing that you try to make a point just shows that you are biases in your reading and need to invent things.

No. YOU'RE the one getting it wrong, or at least assuming that you have it correct. It only says, "Trigger" without defining what it is. It says trigger. It says the trigger has to be perceivable. It does not say what the trigger entails in order for it to complete.

And, once more, this is simple proof that you are INVENTING A RULE THAT IS NOWHERE IN THE RAW. It might be reasonable to you, but first it's not in the RAW by any stretch of reading it, and second it's not reasonable to a number of us. Why are you trying to IMPOSE that version, when you have no RAW support for it ?

Nor is yours. You are also inventing a rule that the trigger completes with the perceivable event. RAW does not say that. It only says that it must complete, not that the trigger doesn't include the remainder of whatever action/event is happening.

At some point in time, I hope you will finally read Thunderstep and understand that, even if things happen in an instant, they can still happen in a defined sequence.

It doesn't matter if you can define them. Nowhere does it say you can interrupt an instant effect and stop it so that you can take a very non-instantaneous action before the end of the instant effect.

You sit and argue how my crawling doesn't make sense, even though RAW says that's the way it works, but then argue the above that makes just as little sense and have no problem with it. You're being very inconsistent.

Anyway, if you are discussing the RAW, here you are, it's plain as day, it does not affect instantaneous spells. If we are discussing the RAW, why are you still discussing ?

We're discussing how RAW says that, because your interpretation of Ready is probably wrong. If your interpretation was correct, they would not have written that dispel magic didn't work, because your interpretation would clearly allow it to work.

So now you can target limbo ?

Sure. The plane of Limbo disappears and triggers your readied action.

Prove it. Tell me EXACTLY the distance that you can run in an instant.

Tell you what. Go outside and try it. I guarantee you won't get far in an instant.

1. Choose a target. Pick a target within your attack’s range: a creature, an object, or a location.
2. Determine modifiers. The DM determines whether the target has cover and whether you have advantage or disadvantage against the target. In addition, spells, special abilities, and other effects can apply penalties or bonuses to your attack roll.
3. Resolve the attack. You make the attack roll. On a hit, you roll damage, unless the particular attack has rules that specify otherwise. Some attacks cause special effects in addition to or instead of damage.

Please tell me, in all these extremely technical steps, which are perceivable by a character so that an action can be triggered.

Sure.

1. Picking a target is EASILY perceivable. You have to set your body, begin to move that direction and any number of other perceivable indicators of you picking your target to attack. You'd likely have to make a perception check, but they are perceivable.

2. Attack resolution. You can perceive the beginning of the swing, which is just as discrete an event as disappearing in the middle of the teleport effect. You can perceive a hit or miss, which is also a discrete event like a thunderclap in the middle of a thunderstep teleport effect. And you can perceive the discrete event of damage being done, just like you could perceive the reappearance of a teleport effect.

Take special note how there is not one single thing in there about rolling.

It's funny how my extracts from the rules are fluff and yours are rules. There is no such thing, everything in the books are the RAW. Deny it.

I absolutely deny it. You just claimed that elves cannot live in a city, because RAW is, "They live in places of ethereal beauty, in the midst of ancient forests or in silvery spires glittering with faerie light, where soft music drifts through the air and gentle fragrances waft on the breeze." That's patently ridiculous. What I just quoted from the book is pure fluff and has no force of rule at all. It's written sure, but there ain't no R there for it to be (R)AW.

You're quoting a fluff description and ignore the hard rule about the sequence of combat that I quoted.

And you claim this as a basis that characters see everything that happens everywhere on a battlefield ? That is indeed funny.

Nawp! Never said they see everything. I said they see everything around them except when the DM rules a special circumstance, like being on the other side of a wall, prevents it.

Honestly, this is a very specific rule, that pertains ONLY to hidden character trying to approach in the open.

It does not. It states in very, very general terms that they are aware of dangers all around them and that is why they see the formerly hidden creature coming towards them.

The fact that you are alert does not grand you X-Ray vision, at the very list.

You're good at this whole Strawman things. Knock it off. I never said anything about seeing through walls. That was your fictional addition to my statement.

When someone has to resort to lots of Strawmen the way you are, it's a sign that they've lost the argument and feel forced to start twisting what the other guy is saying in order to attempt(and fail) to appear like they are correct.

Ah, good, at last some progress. So we agree that you can't specify the actual velocity of any move that you make ?

It is very specifically less than instant. RAW does not label movement as instantaneous(except for teleportation movement), so it isn't. Instantaneous actions and effects are labeled as such.

And, as a DM, I am perfectly justified in saying that, if you don't make your best effort to move as quickly as you can out of the zone of effect that you are trying to avoid by using the move of your readied action, you will not complete the move in an instant, therefore will be caught by it, and since you have only 1 hp left, you are dying.

You cannot by RAW complete your movement in an instant. Period. The move action is not labeled an instantaneous action, so even if you move only 5 feet, it takes too long. It cannot be faster than teleportation.