Ignoble Death by Ray of Frost!?!

[Hypersmurf]

Ray of Enfeeb allows a Fort save to negate it. And since it doesn't do any damage (hell, it's not even doing real Str damage -- just an enhancement penalty), I'd say that it doesn't inflict sneak damage.

That's right - it's the example given of "not a weapon-like spell" in the critical hits section of Tome and Blood, and only weapon-like spells deal SA damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Forrester]

It may be his schtick, but it's a retarded schtick.

It's not quite up there with the Great Cleave/Whirlwind but it's close.

 

[IceBear]

Not going to get into this again with you Forrester (I know that you hate the idea of this rule), but it's really no different than a rogue throwing a dagger for sneak attack damage. Yes, the Ray of Frost is a ranged touch attack and the dagger requires a normal hit roll. Other than that, the concept of doing huge amounts of damage with a ray of frost or a dagger is the same. Thus, not a big deal for me.

IceBear

 

[hong]

It may be his schtick, but it's a retarded schtick.

No more retarded than standing (or floating) 100 feet back with a bow, and plugging the enemies with full attacks every round for ~150 points of damage.

 

[Archer]

I think its a clever use of a typically overlooked 0th level spell. Arcane tricksters don't have the greatest BAB so getting touch attacks is a good use of their abilities. Archers of the same level get off 3-6 attacks per round vs only 1 spell of short range.

 

[Forrester]

Not going to get into this again with you Forrester (I know that you hate the idea of this rule), but it's really no different than a rogue throwing a dagger for sneak attack damage. Yes, the Ray of Frost is a ranged touch attack and the dagger requires a normal hit roll. Other than that, the concept of doing huge amounts of damage with a ray of frost or a dagger is the same. Thus, not a big deal for me.

IceBear

Yeah, we've done this dance before . You and your Rays of Frost on the Fire Giants . . .

The problem is that it's a touch attack, so it's going to hit 95% of the time when cast by the average Trickster. And if he's Hasted, he can cast three of them a round (might as well cast one Quickened one, it's only 4th level) -- ignoring the Twinned Spell nonsense for now -- and do an automatic massive horde of damage.

At least with an arrow you have to make it through armor. About the only way one can imagine the Rays doing the kind of damage they're supposed to be doing is if the caster keeps, what, hitting them in the ear?

Like I said -- retarded schtick. Whirlwind/Great Cleave/Bag o' Snails is "clever" too . . . doesn't make it not dumb.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, we've done this dance before . You and your Rays of Frost on the Fire Giants . . .

The problem is that it's a touch attack, so it's going to hit 95% of the time when cast by the average Trickster. And if he's Hasted, he can cast three of them a round (might as well cast one Quickened one, it's only 4th level) -- ignoring the Twinned Spell nonsense for now -- and do an automatic massive horde of damage.

At least with an arrow you have to make it through armor. About the only way one can imagine the Rays doing the kind of damage they're supposed to be doing is if the caster keeps, what, hitting them in the ear?

Like I said -- retarded schtick. Whirlwind/Great Cleave/Bag o' Snails is "clever" too . . . doesn't make it not dumb.

And I did concede that the main difference was the touch attack. Big whoop. I have no problem seeing a spell hitting a vulnerable spot and doing more damage. I don't see it as being cheesy. Sure, if we start going with haste/twinned quickened spells, etc it gets cheesy, but then pretty much everything gets cheesy then

BTW - I've never had anyone in my campaign use Rays of Frosts on Fire Giants for sneak attacks (then again, I don't have any rogues in my campaign), but I accept that the rules allow for it and it doesn't offend my sensibilities. The Bucket of Snails with WWA/GC does offend my sensibilities (and bend the intentions of the rules) so I would not allow that.

IceBear

 

[Pielorinho]

At least with an arrow you have to make it through armor. About the only way one can imagine the Rays doing the kind of damage they're supposed to be doing is if the caster keeps, what, hitting them in the ear?

This is a shtick that doesn't require spells, of course -- it works better with flasks of alchemist's fire, a heward's handy haversack, and either a ring of blinking or a casting of improved invisibility. Then you can use rapid shot and your BAB to get lots of attacks.

And "the only way this would work is to hit them in the ear? Spoken like a man who's never had an ice-cream headache. Hit 'em in the eye, or the forehead, or the mouth. Hit 'em in the crotch -- can you say blue balls? It's a surefire way to cold- your enemy.

Daniel

 

[hong]

The problem is that it's a touch attack, so it's going to hit 95% of the time when cast by the average Trickster. And if he's Hasted, he can cast three of them a round (might as well cast one Quickened one, it's only 4th level) -- ignoring the Twinned Spell nonsense for now -- and do an automatic massive horde of damage.

What's wrong with an "automatic massive horde of damage"?

Consider a rog4/wiz5/arcane trickster 2, flying, hasted and improved invis'd. They get BAB +6, +3d6 sneak attack, and are caster level 7th. Three rays of frost in one round equates to 3d4+9d6 damage, and they've likely blown all their 4th level spell slots for that (improved invis + quickened RoF).

Consider a rog11 with a bow, also flying, hasted and improved invis'd. They get BAB +8/+3, and +6d6 sneak attack. Assuming Str 14, Dex 20 and a +3 bow, they have +16/+16/+11, and do 1d8+5+6d6 damage per hit. With Rapid Shot, they have +14/+14/+14/+9, and have a good chance of hitting at least twice. That's 2d8+10+12d6 damage.

Consider a wiz11, also flying, hasted and improved invis'd. They let off two fireballs and a quickened magic missile. That's 20d6, save for half, plus 5d4+5. If the target makes all their saves, that's still 10d6+5d4+5.

All of these seem fairly comparable to me.

At the top end, consider a rog4/wiz5/arcane trickster 10, who is for some reason still using ray of frost. They get BAB +10/+5, +6d6 sneak attack, and are caster level 15th. Three RoF's in one round equates to 3d4+18d6.

Consider a rog19. They get BAB +14/+9/+4 and +10d6 sneak attack. Assuming Str 18, Dex 24 and a +5 bow, their attacks are at minimum +26/+21/+16, and most likely they'll be at least +30/+25/+20. Add in haste and Rapid Shot for +28/+28/+28/+23/+18. If four attacks hit out of six (highly likely, given how AC tends to increase more slowly compared to BAB), that's at least 4d8+32+40d6. It'll almost certainly be more, if you allow for energy enchantments on the bow, bracers of archery, etc.

Now consider a rgr3/ftr6/deepwood sniper 10. Minimum attack bonus for this character will be on the order of +35/+30/+25/+20. Haste and Rapid Shot make it +33/+33/+33/+28/+23/+18. If five attacks hit, and one of them is a crit (recall the DWS's crit range is 18-20), that's something like 9d8+135, again plus energy enchantments.

Again, all of these seem comparable to me, assuming the arcane trickster has other tricks up his sleeve than just the ray of frost thing.

I also haven't bothered to minmax these examples out the wazoo. I'm sure the ultimate munchkins on this here UNseboard could do better.

At least with an arrow you have to make it through armor.

AC is generally not a problem for archers, what with stacked bow and arrow bonuses, bracers of archery, and whatnot. The exception is big boss monsters like dragons, but these also usually have ways of dealing with invisible people.

 

[Gaiden]

Xarlen

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