D&D General I'm a Fighter, not a Lover: Why the 1e Fighter was so Awesome

I think he did read her books. She had shields(psionic defenses), psionic attacks, psionic powers, etc. He just put them into the game in a modified fashion the same way the 1e ranger is Aragorn, yet not exactly Aragorn.
Then he really missed the boat on the psionic-magic items she had in there: various psionic-run scrying devices, Wards Major and Minor, and so forth.

I had a party find a set of Wards Major not long ago, took 'em forever to figure out what they did (I've taken psionics out other than for a few iconic monsters, and converted items like this to work more conventionally).
 

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But really, personally I think that's pretty moot, because you're talking about a 20th-24th level AD&D character, which was something that hardly ever happened unless you were playing Monty Haul or started that high.
Yes. Above “name level” - where the level title matches the class name and HD top out and level titles stop changing, typically around 9th - play almost never happened in my experience.

But that’s also true for me in other editions. To me, basically around 12th - just like a lot of 5e adventures and BG3 - is the true highest level PC, with few exceptions.
 

By the way, the PHB also mentions (although doesn't detail) the fact that you don't get XP until you return from adventuring to a base of operations.
I’ve always* used the rule that PC’s only level up in a place of safety, but I didn’t remember where it was from.

* Always, as in DMing 1e, 3e, and 3.5e. My campaigns in 3.5e still use a lot of AD&D flavor. “3e rules, 1e feel” isn’t just a marketing slogan, it’s a lifestyle choice. :)
 

But that’s also true for me in other editions. To me, basically around 12th - just like a lot of 5e adventures and BG3 - is the true highest level PC, with few exceptions.
Yeah, I've experienced about the same. Most campaigns I'd consider "long running" still conclude somewhere in the 12th-14th level range. The one exception was a single 3e campaign that got all the way to 18th level, but everyone was quite burned out by the end and only soldiering on to finish things.
 

The Cleric was long in this strange position of being, on paper, one of the strongest classes, but in practice, they got relegated to "heal bots" and even though they could use most of the combat-oriented magic items, Fighter classes generally got priority for those.

For example, there's nothing stopping a 1e Cleric from using what Snarf calls the "Holy Grail" of magic items- Girdle of Giant Strength + Gauntlets of Ogre Power + Hammer of Thunderbolts. But you'd likely never see a Cleric kitted out that way. I had a Cleric in a game once who managed to snag a Girdle of Stone Giant Strength, and for a short time at least, inferior weapon choices didn't matter- I was a wrecking ball who the 18/98 Strength Fighter was envious of!

Said Fighter eventually teamed up with another player to murder me to get said Girdle for himself. Needless to say, he paid for that in the long run- I sure as heck wasn't going to play another Cleric to heal his treacherous behind after that!

I wondered for a long time why Clerics were so unsung during my AD&D years- I remember playing in a lot of different groups, and having a healer around wasn't common. Then it occurred to me that I had a lot of potions of healing on my character sheet- I'm not sure how common those were meant to be, but a combination of published adventures and no doubt DM interference kept our Fighter-types swimming in potions.

That and my DM's only seemed to care about natural healing rates while in the field- between adventures, it was amazing how quickly people healed to full hit points!

It is always interesting to read stories about how different tables played the same game back in the day.

In my main AD&D 1E group most people seemed to settle into playing the same type of character over and over, usually human warriors or elf wizard types, whereas the whole reason why I preferred AD&D was the much larger variety of race and class combinations compared to B/X and BECMI. I wanted to try as many as possible, although I never got to them all.

I played several clerics and druids, often because nobody else wanted to be the combat medic. As a cleric I rarely got to use any 1st level spells other than Cure Light Wounds (shouldn’t those spells have been called Heal Wounds anyway?). I usually picked one of the mythological deities, often from the Norse pantheon, and occasionally I could get the DM to agree to some minor Aesir-flavored special ability in order to get away from the usual “Knight Hospitaller with the serial numbers filed off” that was the standard 1E cleric.

In retrospect we were not particularly good players or DMs. We were hack-and-slashers uninterested in urban adventures or NPC interactions, irked by puzzles and traps that offered no XP or treasure. But it is remarkable how well we absorbed some of the tactical aspects of the game inherited from D&D’s wargame roots. We always designated a marching order, with a tough character in last place in case someone tried to sneak up on us, although in practice DMs rarely tried this. Each character had a missile weapon, even if it was just a sling, in case we had to trade volleys with archers at a distance. I sometimes played female PCs who might save the day in case we ever faced harpies or nymphs who could mesmerize male characters, which never came up in real play, not even once 😂.

But most of all we would never dream of going into a dungeon without a decent spread of classes, including several warriors, at least one “blaster caster” mage with good damage spells, at least one thief to open doors and treasure chests, and at least one cleric for healing. So it is surprising to read that people played without clerics simply because nobody wanted to play one.

We also had a “one for all, all for one” spirit that seems to have been rare, judging by the stories here. We rarely if ever discussed any of this in a Session Zero, but it was just understood that some things were beyond the pale. Nobody really wanted to play Lawful Good, for the same reason that everybody’s favorite Star Wars character was Han Solo and not Luke Skywalker, namely that everybody liked bad boys who don’t play by the rules but get results. Yet nobody ever played actual Evil characters either, so there were no assassins or half-orcs in our games and we tended to forget they even existed. I was (predictably) the only one who ever tried a paladin, but we had plenty of rangers because we followed the Rule of Cool, and Aragorn son of Arathorn was definitely cool.

Player vs. player and even PC vs. PC was unheard of. The thief player might crack an occasional joke about stealing from the party, but we never even pickpocketed NPCs because we were scared of the town guard. This approach extended to magic items as well. We always distributed items on an ad hoc basis according to who could make best use of them. PCs would often trade or give each other items when a better one came along. For instance, a mage with a ring of protection +1 might simply give it to the thief after getting bracers of defense AC 5, because the mage now had a pretty good AC and the thief needed help on saving throws against the old “poison needle concealed in the treasure chest lock” gag.

When I was in sixth grade and still learning D&D from my Moldvay Basic Set, I was running a game for one player controlling a whole party, which we sometimes did because we never had enough players in our very small community (besides, we were used to the idea from playing CRPGs like The Bard’s Tale, Ultima, and Wizardry). The player disliked clerics and did not want to bother bringing one along, but I argued with him and insisted that he had to have one because he needed healing spells. In protest he gave the unwanted cleric a silly name: “M&M”, like the candy 😅. I should have just given him some healing potions and got on with the game.
 

It is always interesting to read stories about how different tables played the same game back in the day.

In my main AD&D 1E group most people seemed to settle into playing the same type of character over and over, usually human warriors or elf wizard types, whereas the whole reason why I preferred AD&D was the much larger variety of race and class combinations compared to B/X and BECMI. I wanted to try as many as possible, although I never got to them all.

I played several clerics and druids, often because nobody else wanted to be the combat medic. As a cleric I rarely got to use any 1st level spells other than Cure Light Wounds (shouldn’t those spells have been called Heal Wounds anyway?). I usually picked one of the mythological deities, often from the Norse pantheon, and occasionally I could get the DM to agree to some minor Aesir-flavored special ability in order to get away from the usual “Knight Hospitaller with the serial numbers filed off” that was the standard 1E cleric.

In retrospect we were not particularly good players or DMs. We were hack-and-slashers uninterested in urban adventures or NPC interactions, irked by puzzles and traps that offered no XP or treasure. But it is remarkable how well we absorbed some of the tactical aspects of the game inherited from D&D’s wargame roots. We always designated a marching order, with a tough character in last place in case someone tried to sneak up on us, although in practice DMs rarely tried this. Each character had a missile weapon, even if it was just a sling, in case we had to trade volleys with archers at a distance. I sometimes played female PCs who might save the day in case we ever faced harpies or nymphs who could mesmerize male characters, which never came up in real play, not even once 😂.

But most of all we would never dream of going into a dungeon without a decent spread of classes, including several warriors, at least one “blaster caster” mage with good damage spells, at least one thief to open doors and treasure chests, and at least one cleric for healing. So it is surprising to read that people played without clerics simply because nobody wanted to play one.

We also had a “one for all, all for one” spirit that seems to have been rare, judging by the stories here. We rarely if ever discussed any of this in a Session Zero, but it was just understood that some things were beyond the pale. Nobody really wanted to play Lawful Good, for the same reason that everybody’s favorite Star Wars character was Han Solo and not Luke Skywalker, namely that everybody liked bad boys who don’t play by the rules but get results. Yet nobody ever played actual Evil characters either, so there were no assassins or half-orcs in our games and we tended to forget they even existed. I was (predictably) the only one who ever tried a paladin, but we had plenty of rangers because we followed the Rule of Cool, and Aragorn son of Arathorn was definitely cool.

Player vs. player and even PC vs. PC was unheard of. The thief player might crack an occasional joke about stealing from the party, but we never even pickpocketed NPCs because we were scared of the town guard. This approach extended to magic items as well. We always distributed items on an ad hoc basis according to who could make best use of them. PCs would often trade or give each other items when a better one came along. For instance, a mage with a ring of protection +1 might simply give it to the thief after getting bracers of defense AC 5, because the mage now had a pretty good AC and the thief needed help on saving throws against the old “poison needle concealed in the treasure chest lock” gag.

When I was in sixth grade and still learning D&D from my Moldvay Basic Set, I was running a game for one player controlling a whole party, which we sometimes did because we never had enough players in our very small community (besides, we were used to the idea from playing CRPGs like The Bard’s Tale, Ultima, and Wizardry). The player disliked clerics and did not want to bother bringing one along, but I argued with him and insisted that he had to have one because he needed healing spells. In protest he gave the unwanted cleric a silly name: “M&M”, like the candy 😅. I should have just given him some healing potions and got on with the game.
A lot of this resonated with me. I bet you were playing with friends, right? From the neighborhood or school?

I think it's more common for ppl nowadays to play with strangers or acquaintances, where there isn't that same level of congeniality, familiarity or trust with the people around the table.

Rose-colored glasses and all, but I think it was better back then.
 

The Cleric was long in this strange position of being, on paper, one of the strongest classes, but in practice, they got relegated to "heal bots" and even though they could use most of the combat-oriented magic items, Fighter classes generally got priority for those.

For example, there's nothing stopping a 1e Cleric from using what Snarf calls the "Holy Grail" of magic items- Girdle of Giant Strength + Gauntlets of Ogre Power + Hammer of Thunderbolts. But you'd likely never see a Cleric kitted out that way. I had a Cleric in a game once who managed to snag a Girdle of Stone Giant Strength, and for a short time at least, inferior weapon choices didn't matter- I was a wrecking ball who the 18/98 Strength Fighter was envious of!

Said Fighter eventually teamed up with another player to murder me to get said Girdle for himself. Needless to say, he paid for that in the long run- I sure as heck wasn't going to play another Cleric to heal his treacherous behind after that!

I wondered for a long time why Clerics were so unsung during my AD&D years- I remember playing in a lot of different groups, and having a healer around wasn't common. Then it occurred to me that I had a lot of potions of healing on my character sheet- I'm not sure how common those were meant to be, but a combination of published adventures and no doubt DM interference kept our Fighter-types swimming in potions.

That and my DM's only seemed to care about natural healing rates while in the field- between adventures, it was amazing how quickly people healed to full hit points!

I played some clerics in 5E and pointed out in session 0 that I was a Cleric, but NOT a healer. That is not to say I would never heal anyone, I would use healing spells. By my PC was not going to be running around the combat topping up other PCs every round.

I played a Ranger once who did not use Cure Wounds until around level 9. I healed up a PC when our healer couldn't or was down or something. Before I cast it I even said - "I don't even like other players to know I have this spell"
 

A lot of this resonated with me. I bet you were playing with friends, right? From the neighborhood or school?

I think it's more common for ppl nowadays to play with strangers or acquaintances, where there isn't that same level of congeniality, familiarity or trust with the people around the table.

Rose-colored glasses and all, but I think it was better back then.

Yes, we lived in a very small town and went to a fairly small school, so our groups were schoolmates and friends. D&D was our main hobby and often the main basis for the friendships. We did not always get along and we sometimes played with people we liked less than others, but both players and DMs seemed to instinctively curb their worst behavioral tendencies. Nobody wanted to be ostracized from the group because that probably meant finding new friends and a new hobby, which was not particularly feasible under the circumstances.

I am not sure how much it affected game play, but we were all well aware that D&D was a “nerd” hobby and in the late 80’s nerd stuff was not popular, mainstream, or accepted by parents and other adults the way it is today. Some in our groups were fairly popular or even cool, but others (including yours truly) were nerds or geeks who did not accept the label and avoided talking about RPG stuff at school, although in retrospect that was probably a bit paranoid. That started to change somewhat in 1989 with the Tim Burton Batman movie. All of a sudden junior high school “cool kids” who had not thought about comics in years suddenly sported Batman movie T-shirts. That may have been the thin end of the wedge that eventually led us to the mass popularity of other comic book movies, Trek and Wars, Critical Role, etc.

We were aware of the Satanic Panic but it did not really affect us. My parents bought me all of my D&D books. They were happy to let me host games of D&D or the Starfleet Battles war game at the house, provided we kept the noise down to a reasonable level as we went late into the night. Why? Because that meant they knew exactly where I was and what I was doing 😉.
 

On another forum someone was comparing and contrasting their experiences playing with friends as opposed to organized play in Friendly Local Games Shops, and they jokingly called the latter “Stranger Danger D&D” because you never know quite who you are going to meet... 😬

One reason I wanted to get back into RPGs after a very long hiatus was to meet people and make some new friends in real life, but I know that may be a long term goal.
 

Yes, we lived in a very small town and went to a fairly small school, so our groups were schoolmates and friends. D&D was our main hobby and often the main basis for the friendships. We did not always get along and we sometimes played with people we liked less than others, but both players and DMs seemed to instinctively curb their worst behavioral tendencies. Nobody wanted to be ostracized from the group because that probably meant finding new friends and a new hobby, which was not particularly feasible under the circumstances.

I am not sure how much it affected game play, but we were all well aware that D&D was a “nerd” hobby and in the late 80’s nerd stuff was not popular, mainstream, or accepted by parents and other adults the way it is today. Some in our groups were fairly popular or even cool, but others (including yours truly) were nerds or geeks who did not accept the label and avoided talking about RPG stuff at school, although in retrospect that was probably a bit paranoid. That started to change somewhat in 1989 with the Tim Burton Batman movie. All of a sudden junior high school “cool kids” who had not thought about comics in years suddenly sported Batman movie T-shirts. That may have been the thin end of the wedge that eventually led us to the mass popularity of other comic book movies, Trek and Wars, Critical Role, etc.

We were aware of the Satanic Panic but it did not really affect us. My parents bought me all of my D&D books. They were happy to let me host games of D&D or the Starfleet Battles war game at the house, provided we kept the noise down to a reasonable level as we went late into the night. Why? Because that meant they knew exactly where I was and what I was doing 😉.
I swear, you must have rolled for AD&D 1E Psionics because you pulled this straight outta my head! Ditto almost across the board. Well met, my doppleganger friend. :)
 

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