I'm annoyed at archers.

[hong]

Which splatbook?

The ELH.

 

[Petrosian]

"However I think it all comes down to one question... are your players power playing or are they role-playing... cause it really sounds like the former. "

If my character is a guy who willingly puts himself into the role of the guy who uses his combat abilities to stand between innocents and the forces of darkness, if thats his chosen calling, then it does not seem to me that the role playing and power playing aspects are at odds whatsoever. it would seem that the character would, in character, be developing the best combat abilities he can, so as to enable him to succeed when many lives are on the line, to win out where others fail, and so on.

The player constructing the character to reflect this does not seem to be an issue at all.

 

[IceBear]

I know this is a houserule, but since GMW seems to be an issue here, I was thinking of not allowing the bonuses from GMW to count for purposes of overcoming DR. Thoughts?

IceBear

 

[bret]

I know this is a houserule, but since GMW seems to be an issue here, I was thinking of not allowing the bonuses from GMW to count for purposes of overcoming DR. Thoughts?

IceBear

I think that would make the spell almost useless in many cases.

You would be better off reducing the amount of ammunition you can GMW with one spell. For a high level archer, you have about 12 rounds of GMW ammo per spell. Cut this in half and it is still worthwhile, but makes the characters consider how fast they go through the ammo. This is assuming that they will almost always have more than six rounds of combat per day.

The other thing that should probably be done is making Protection From Arrows increase in power faster than GMW. As it is, you get protection 10/+4 at the same time that GMW is providing +5 weapons. The only time that Protection from Arrows has an advantage is 3-5 levels. After that, the two spells are even for a time and then the advantage goes strongly towards GMW.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, but I guess I've never liked the idea of a spell duplicating a magic item so completely as GMW does. I don't think that the spell would be useless, you'd still get the +5 to hit and damage, but if you want to bypass the DR then you should get an appropriate magic item first. I'd also not have the GMW count for the purposes of sundering either (which was why I was thinking of extending this into DR). Anyway, that's just my opinion.

I do like the idea of making protection from arrows scale better though.

IceBear

 

[Vaxalon]

I think that the best way for the DM to deal with the whole archer problem is to play DUNGEONS and dragons.

That is, put them in the dungeon. Restrict them, and the ranged attacks won't make as much difference. There are all kinds of nasty ambushes you can use to put the baddies in amongst the group.

 

[IceBear]

Yeah, that's why (I think) I haven't noticed too much of a problem with archers in my campaign as a lot of it has been in dungeons, and it's hard for an archer to shine in a 20ft by 20ft room

IceBear

 

[Pax]

Anyway, I would agree with your point that archers are primarily offensive characters, except that I have personal experiences to the contrary. In general, the archers have just a couple of AC points lower than a tank, and they have about 5% fewer hps. A TWF character cannot have an AC higher than an archer, nor can his hps be exceptionally better. They are, afterall, both wearing mithril chain shirts, and they both tend to have d10 HD (their Con modifiers are not drastically different.)

This begs the question: why are the melee twinks wearing mithril chain shirts ... ? A mithril breastplate, or elven chainmail, or better, full plate armor (mithril or not) would be superior.

Mithril Shirt gives +4 AC, and lots of room for dexterity modifiers; the melee "twinks" must not be well TWINKED, if they're relying on Dex-bonus-to-AC at all!! Full plate, with no extras, is already +5AC more ... with a 1-point Max Dex Bonus. That's +10 AC at the highest, so just to TIE that, the Mithril Shirt would have to be worn by someone with a 22 or higher dexterity ... a melee twink should really be pushing for strength, not dexterity!

This is why I do not compare a mage with the archer. Mages have d4 HD and, though they can have the highest AC, this is not common, IMX, since most of their spells are intended for other pursuits.
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All of this talk of being a part of a team, IMHO, is a rationalization of a flaw in the game. Honestly, heroic campaigns are not supposed to be built around waiting for the mage and the archer to kill everything while the melee fighter stands there looking stupid. (Our melee fighters were so useless one battle, that we took out rations and made camp. *grin*)

No, a team of specialists is foundational to the genre. Most, if not all, stories have various characters who each have some special talent, knack, skill, or so on. You have the great archer, the strength-oriented fighter, the skill-based fighter, the wizard, the healer, the scout, and so on. These are archetypes for more than just simplicity of game mechanics; they are archetypes because the stories on which fantasy RPGs are based, use them ... and HAVE used them for longer than the written word has existed!

I am a fan of heroic fantasy. In heroic fantasy, the bad guys and the good guys face off, mano a mano, and duel to the death; they don't shoot at each other from behind shield walls. DnD does not adequately portray the type of game that I would like to play. Therefore, I have made certain changes to archers IMC, so that archery, though effective, cannot be made so useful and overpowering, that the entire sphere of combat revolves around them.

Not in the heroic fantasy I ever read. In the heroic fantasy books I've read, the heroes are usually outnumbered at least two to one by hordes of enemies; the melee fighters' job is to provide an impenetrable "line of death" that the enemy cannot get across, while the ranged fighters (archers, spellcasters, slingers, desperate damsels-in-distress throwing rocks, whatever) thin out the numbers those melee fighters have to face.

I still say the problems in your campaign are problems of GM tactics, in regards to the tactics of the encountered foes. And a BADLY twinked pair of melee specialists trying to compete with WELL twinked ranged specialists only compounds that.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

This begs the question: why are the melee twinks wearing mithril chain shirts ... ? A mithril breastplate, or elven chainmail, or better, full plate armor (mithril or not) would be superior.

Mithril Shirt gives +4 AC, and lots of room for dexterity modifiers; the melee "twinks" must not be well TWINKED, if they're relying on Dex-bonus-to-AC at all!! Full plate, with no extras, is already +5AC more ... with a 1-point Max Dex Bonus. That's +10 AC at the highest, so just to TIE that, the Mithril Shirt would have to be worn by someone with a 22 or higher dexterity ... a melee twink should really be pushing for strength, not dexterity!

I don't know, sure the mithral breastplate would be better, but when it comes to mithral you take what you can get in many games. As for plate etc. again depends in many games a better AC will in no way compensate for the loss of movement. A move 15 yaboo can easily be avoided and wasted when facing a relatively mobile enemy. And if your role is getting in the way of the oncoming enemy a high AC is good but, being so slow that a parapalegic 4 year old could get past you isn't a good plan.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yeah, that's why (I think) I haven't noticed too much of a problem with archers in my campaign as a lot of it has been in dungeons, and it's hard for an archer to shine in a 20ft by 20ft room

True. It is also a good scenario for a grunt to get full attacks and the occasional cleave in. That will level the playing field.

Having watched an optimized 8th level fighter/barbarian wielding a Keen Falchion with Imroved Crit in action, I think this idea that archers dominate combat is nonsense. The wizard puts Haste on him and he gets his Partial Charge + Full Attack every round. He also usually gets a Cleave or two per combat.