I'm annoyed at archers.

[the Jester]

I guess I just can't imagine how all combats would start at a difference. Maybe I'm just used to dungeon-intensive campaigns, but even in the open there's a ton of ways to just plain deny archers a shot until the battle lines close. I dunno, I have to say, it sounds like your dm may not be a great tactician.

All it takes is 100% cover or concealment.

 

[hong]

But that is the whole point of melee fighters - to engage in melee and take all the damage to would be going to the back ranks if the melee fighter wasn't there.

Ya know, it's a good thing we have posts like these, otherwise the tanks might feel unappreciated.

 

[hong]

I'll admit that cleave sees a lot more use at high levels than great cleave, but criticals, low-hp bad guys (wizards or rogues for instance), and other effects can make great cleave worthwhile.

They can, but it's definitely not something you want to rely on. Note that most low-hp people will tend to boost their AC and/or use measures like blink and displacement as a protective measure, so you're not going to hit each time. If something not only has low hit points but also can't bump up its AC, then it almost certainly isn't powerful enough to be a threat.

A melee monster could very easily drop a threatening target with his haste partial charge+power critical,

... once per day, assuming Power Crit even exists.

cleave into another threatening bad guy, take his first two normal attacks on that bad guy, great cleave into another bad guy, and finish his routine by using his tertiary attack the third bad guy--possibly dropping him and great cleaving into a fourth.

Everything's _possible_. This isn't very _probable_, in my experience. And if there really are that many fragile mooks around, the best way to deal with them is via a well-placed fireball (empowered if necessary).

If the character in question is a raging 12th level fighter/barbarian with an effective 28 strength and a +2 frost greataxe, two hits from him deal an average of 54 points of damage which is enough to drop a variety of villains who could be fairly threatening. Three hits deal 81 hp damage on average and four hits (which is the equivalent of what the first guy in the sequence took) deal 108 hp damage before power attacking--a moderate use of power attack pumps that up to an average of 128 points of damage to the first guy. I think Great Cleave could come into play here. . . .

Unfortunately, most CR 12 creatures will have in excess of 100 hp. And a tank with a two-handed weapon is not going to get 4 attacks at 12th level, unless it's with haste.

And what's the barbarian going to do after the charge? If there's anyone left, he's in the teeth of the enemy, with -2 to AC and vulnerable to all those nifty specials I mentioned before.

It rather depends. If the character has good initiative (high dex, improved init), it may come up fairly regularly. If the melee character is a spellsword, Blink is a pretty reliable way of aquiring it too. Sound burst works good at low levels; Glitterdust, Blindness/Deafness, Evard's Black Tentacles (grappled opponents don't have a dex bonus against creatures outside the grapple), Power Word Stun, Power Word Blind, Holy Smite, etc keep the possibility open throughout the rest of the levels.

A spellsword with Expert Tactician? That's new.

In general, I think a tank is better off just concentrating on dealing damage the old-fashioned way.

Fair enough. The difference is that I think the new version of expert tactician is balanced but Manyshot isn't even close to it. (I think there's also a difference between using ELH and using the classbooks too).

They're all stupid, IMO.

 

[WizarDru]

Why do people keep referring to archers as back-line characters? They aren't. They're fighters, with sub-optimal melee skills. An elven fighter with archer as a specialty can still mix it up just fine as a front line fighter...they just chose not to because it's so ineffective compared to the amount of damage they can deliver as opposed to melee.

Dungeon situations aren't terribly worrisome to an archer as long as he can take a five foot step. I just find it odd that instead of accepting that there are some situations where archers are extremely powerful, the immediate onus is that the DM is bad at his job.

Yes, a DM can create counters for the archers. That's not the issue. The issue is that constantly having to tailor every combat to make sure the archer isn't the only one who dominates a battle. Not every opponent is going to have archer counters. Not every opponent should...that's just punishing the archers.

I'm not convinced that archers are broken, but they are definitely very strong, and need more consideration than straight melee...and that may be a problem.

 

[IceBear]

Agreed, but IME, archers aren't as dominate as people seem to be making them out. Maybe it's just my players not trying to "twink out" that I haven't run into it. Yet another reason why I love my group

IceBear

 

[Boone]

Not to be a complete Bone head...

But what does... GMW mean?

 

[shilsen]

Not to be a complete Bone head...

But what does... GMW mean?

It refers to the Greater Magic Weapon spell.

 

[Boone]

It refers to the Greater Magic Weapon spell.

In a year of owning the 3e book I have never read that spelll.

Can anyone say hole in your vision?

Thanks

 

[Fisk]

Everything seems pretty balanced to me....

So what if GMW stacks?

At the 15th + level it takes to cast the +5 on the arrows and bow the party is probably facing some nasty stuff...

Since Balance is key the encounter distances should be balanced by the DM as to incorporate all the PC's talents and skills. It's not the rules that should be bitched at. It should be the DM that works them.

So one encouter the archers skills are exemplified next time it may be the fighter.... Who at 15th level should be no slouch either....

With 3 ability points to distribute (strength ?) and 15 feats. This Falchon weilding... improved crit, KEENED blade fighter Probably has Belt of giant strength, And is can have Bulls stregngth cast on him from the same mage who is Casting the GMW.


So now this fighter is crit threatening on 12-20 if he comfirms he's criting 6 times a round.... with all the magic ehancements and 1.5 strength modifiers.... and bursts if the weapon has that.....

AND... he's Cleaving and Great cleaving and Whirlwinding and.... and.. ..

and.... I don't get why people are bitching about archers...

Bitch about poor DM's who don't understand Balance.

 

[maddman75]

LOL - don't feel bad. My players never used it. Heck, they were fifteenth level and still carrying around torches, even though I hosed them with darkness several times. Getting continual flame never occured to them.

SO far everyone's in love with sorcerers, who tend to focus on blowing stuff up. So they haven't explored the utility spells as much.