I'm annoyed at archers.

[Celebrim]

"Nope. The first round, the melee NPC uses a partial charge (1 attack), then a ready action."

Unless I'm really confused, there are a couple of problems with that. First, I didn't think you could just elect to take a partial action. If you could, what is to stop you from taking two partial attacks? I thought you could only take a partial action if circumstances required it (see PH page 127).

Secondly, there is no such thing as a partial ready action. The ready action is a standard action, just like an attack action. (see PH page 134 and Table 8-4 on page 128). The ready action allows you (indeed forces you) to take a partial action, but it is not itself a partial action. So, even if you could elect to take a partial charge, you can't take a partial charge and a ready action on the same round unless you are hasted. Again, if you could take a partial charge and follow it up with a standard action, why not follow your partial charge up with a standard attack action to get an extra attack?

 

[Lela]

Rapid shot is one of the best feats in the game, and you have to ask yourself, why does D&D persist in allowing missile attacks (with a bow) to be done more often than melee attacks, given the ubsurdity of such a thing and the fact that no other system allows that. Quite the contrary, GURPS for example makes it almost impossible to attack as often with a bow as you may with a balanced melee weapon. Don't you think if you are going to be drawing an arrow, knocking it to a bow, drawing the bow, taking aim and firing, that a melee fighter is going to get quite a few good swings in on you in that time?

Archers can hold more than one arrow in their hands. Someone good with their fingers can flip an arrow into place lightening fast. I've seen thing (in RL, don't claim I saw in a movie).

And as long as we're talking about movies, have you even seen LotR? Don't tell me an archer can't go quickly after that.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Every round after that, unless the archer can out-distance or grossly out-maneuver the melee NPC, he FULL ATTACKS, and then readies again.

Uh... you can't ready a full attack.

-Hyp.

 

[Celebrim]

Lela: I can only shake my head in disbelief at a post like that. I fear there isn't much I can say to that. If you can't recognize that firing an arrow faster than you can swing a sword is ridiculous IRL, I can't help you. Sometime get your bow out and get a guy with a foam sword to swing at you while you are trying to fire. Or try to scramble backwards while firing while the same guy is trying (trying? HA!) to run you down with a sword.

Not that it matters to this discussion at all, but for the record, yes I've seen the movie. (Have you seen the movie? What a laugh.)

Hypersmurf: Overlooked that one. Yes, you can't ready a full attack action. Which brings up things like multishot. My archer can move backwards (or sideways, it doesn't matter so long as I can get at least 10' from you) and fire arrows continiously, and the best you can do is try to keep up and make an occasional one swing per round. Why did someone think a multishot feat was a good idea? Would someone publish a feat like 'Springing Full Attack: You can take a move equivalent action and a full attack action on the same round.' How about 'Springing Charge Attack: You can combine a charge attack with a full attack action'. Wouldn't those be a great feat? Think of the tactical possibilities it would open up! Wow, the mind boggles! l33t!!!!!!!!!!

Bah.

 

[Hypersmurf]

How about 'Springing Charge Attack: You can combine a charge attack with a full attack action'. Wouldn't those be a great feat? Think of the tactical possibilities it would open up!

The ability is "Pounce" - look up some of the big cats in the Monster Manual for an example. It's not available as a feat, but some PrCs get it, I believe.

-Hyp.

 

[Pax]

"Nope. The first round, the melee NPC uses a partial charge (1 attack), then a ready action."

Unless I'm really confused, there are a couple of problems with that. First, I didn't think you could just elect to take a partial action. If you could, what is to stop you from taking two partial attacks? I thought you could only take a partial action if circumstances required it (see PH page 127).

The tactic presupposes some means of getting an extra partial action -- Haste, the Expert Tactician feat, or somethng of a similar nature.

Secondly, there is no such thing as a partial ready action. The ready action is a standard action, just like an attack action.

And Partial Actions are "anything you dould do in a round, using a standard action, but without a MEA" ... so yes, a partial action CAN be used to Ready.

(see PH page 134 and Table 8-4 on page 128). The ready action allows you (indeed forces you) to take a partial action, but it is not itself a partial action.

See above.

Or better, PHB, page 127, entry "Partial Actions":

[...] Partial actions are like standard actions, except that you can't do as much with a partial action as you can with a standard action.
As a general rule, you can do as much with a partial action as you can with a standard action minus a move. Thus, you can attack once as a partial action or move your speed, but you can't both move and attack.

So, even if you could elect to take a partial charge,

In fact you can choose to take a partial action ... PHB, same entry on page 127, emphasis mine:

Usually you don't take a partial action because you elect to, [...]

you can't take a partial charge and a ready action on the same round unless you are hasted.

You can't take two partial actions in a round without a bonus partial action, anyway. Charges or not. However, again: the tactic presupposed some means of gaining just that -- a bonus partial action.

Again, if you could take a partial charge and follow it up with a standard action, why not follow your partial charge up with a standard attack action to get an extra attack?

Because, against n archer, readying to keep them in threatened range is likely to be more efficient than a single attack (give up one attack, to ensure -- short of being outrun -- you can make a FULL attack, and re-ready again ...).

 

[Pax]

Uh... you can't ready a full attack.

-Hyp.

Of course not. You ready a MOVE, triggered by the arhcer leaving your threatened zone -- themove being, to KEEP teh archer Threatened.

*sigh*

Look, it's like this:

Round one, Melee Grunt:
... Standard-and-MEA action: Charge archer (one attack at +2 to hit, then -2 AC until next action)
... Partial action: Ready "If <target> moves, move with <target>, attemptignto keep <target> in one of my threatened squares"

Round one, Archer:
... Full Round Action: 5-foot step *1* and full-attack *2*

*1* -- triggers Grunt's move; Archer remains threatened!
*2* -- triggers Attack of Opportunity from Grunt (Ranged attack from threatened square)

Round two, Melee Grunt:
... Full round action: Full attack, and optioonal 5-foot step for tactical maneuvering
... Partial action: Ready "If <target> moves, move with <target>, attemptignto keep <target> in one of my threatened squares"

Round two, Archer:
... Full Round Action: 5-foot step *1* and full-attack *2*

*1* -- triggers Grunt's move; Archer remains threatened!
*2* -- triggers Attack of Opportunity from Grunt (Ranged attack from threatened square)

Round three, Melee Grunt:
... Full round action: Full attack, and optioonal 5-foot step for tactical maneuvering
... Partial action: Ready "If <target> moves, move with <target>, attemptignto keep <target> in one of my threatened squares"

Round three, Archer:
... Full Round Action: 5-foot step *1* and full-attack *2*

*1* -- triggers Grunt's move; Archer remains threatened!
*2* -- triggers Attack of Opportunity from Grunt (Ranged attack from threatened square)

Any round in which the archer double-moves (only), reset the entire process to Round One. Otherwise ... lather, rinse, repeat. So long as the melee grunt can keep up with the archer, and maintain the needed extra partial actions ... the archer is in TROUBLE.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Any round in which the archer double-moves (only), reset the entire process to Round One. Otherwise ... lather, rinse, repeat. So long as the melee grunt can keep up with the archer, and maintain the needed extra partial actions ... the archer is in TROUBLE.

Ah. The fact that the melee grunt is hasted was buried somewhere way back in the thread.

Of course, we need to assume that the archer is hasted also. Which means for every Full Attack + 1 AoO the melee grunt gets, the archer is getting Full Attack (w/ Rapid Shot) + 1 Manyshot.

The melee attacks will, presumably, do more damage... but there are going to be quite a few more arrows headed towards the grunt each round than sword swings towards the archer.

-Hyp.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

Lela: I can only shake my head in disbelief at a post like that. I fear there isn't much I can say to that. If you can't recognize that firing an arrow faster than you can swing a sword is ridiculous IRL, I can't help you. Sometime get your bow out and get a guy with a foam sword to swing at you while you are trying to fire. Or try to scramble backwards while firing while the same guy is trying (trying? HA!) to run you down with a sword.

You forget that 1 attack does not equal one swing of a sword, but a series of attacks, parries, etc. The attack roll is just a simplification of the whole process. You can't equate the two.

Yes, you can swing a sword faster than you can shoot an arrow, but against someone actively defending himself, IRL you'd likely get through his guard less often with a melee weapon than with an arrow from range.

Once again I am reminded that "IRL" and "D&D" should never collide in the same sentence.

 

[ConcreteBuddha]

Archer/melee duels of equal level do not describe a party during game play.

This is because all encounters are against creatures of lower levels and lower damage and defense potential than the party. (That's the point of having a CR system.)


Example:

A party of 4 twinky level 7 characters will fight a CR 8 encounter and generally be okay. (Like 2 CR 6's, 3 CR 5's or 4 CR 4's)

In the case of one CR 8, the melee protects the casters by tanking, while the archer peppers the bad guy from afar, losing nothing.

In the case of a bunch of lower CRs, the melee protects the casters (as well as possible), while the archer concentrates on the one or two creatures that target him specifically. The low CR creatures die miserably after a couple Rapid Shots, and the archer loses nothing.

Other archtypes lose resources during each encounter (casters lose spells, melees lose hps), whereas archers rarely ever lose anything.


That is why I chose to nerf GMW and alter magic arrow prices. Archers now lose resources during every combat. They must ration their arrows, much like a caster rationing spells. (They also are now less reliant on having a caster as a necessity, though a healer is still important.)