I'm annoyed at archers.

[Zad]

Archers annoy me too, sometimes. [/B]

That's why I bring donuts.

Quick note on the Arcance Archer. IMHO, it's the most inoffensive of prestige classes. I'd almost go as far as to say "underpowered". You give up some things to get there, and in return you get to make your own magic arrows.

Compare this to the party wizard casting GMW for you, and it's not much of a benefit. Usually your arrows will lag behind the bonus the mage could make. And as you level higher, the use of that third level spell becomes less of an issue.

OOBI or Deepwood sniper? Rant away. But Arcane Archer is actually pretty mild.

 

[kigmatzomat]

LokiDR: That isn't a 'by the book' 3rd. ed. mechanic for handling destruction of equipement.......

By default in 3rd. ed. though, only one object goes *kaplooie* when you fumble a saving throw vs. a damaging attack and there is a definate order of precendence which would in general protect said arrows.

Really? Can you give me a page number? When it happened the player who rolled the first fumble (also a 3e GM) started doing his own item destruction process. While I'm hideously amused at the image of two dozen wands of 0-2nd level spells sparkle and fizz, I also didn't really plan on destroying almost 8,000gp of magic items between the two of them. On the other hand, I really didn't have a problem with toasting the bandolier (no joke) of wands. High surface area, quite accessible on purpose, and not particularly sturdy. (Let's see if they're smart enough to begin special-ordering wands made of metal, like the DMG says can be done.)

I'll admit that it did seem harsh and I mitigated it to the situation by declaring that certain items with low hardness/HP (cloaks, clothing, jewelry) were essentially immune to the relatively low amount of cold damage (11HP pre-save, just enough to toast a wand on a failed save)

Arrows are even more vulnerable; wooden shafts with feathered vanes exposed during combat that need relatively minor amounts of damage to rend non-functional. Given the situation, even non-critical damage to an arrow can reduce it's accuracy or make it useless until repaired (ever fired an arrow with broken or missing vanes? Not pretty.)

Of course, *I* have to deal with players with a quiver of ehlonna. Most I'm likely to do is cause them to lose a round while they move arrows from another storage area to the primary quiver.

And as far as arrow management I keep track of the number of rounds of combat we had. As a rule of thumb the archer uses 2/3 full attack every round worth of arrows, implying he either fires less arrows due to movement or didn't fire at all some rounds (drink a potion, activate an item, etc). Right now he gets 3 arrows a round, so we toss off 2 arrows each round of combat. It works well enough for both our purposes though the quiver pretty much mooted that. Every time they're in town they pick up another 100ish arrows. I only keep track of things like that when I know they aren't going to be near a town with for any length of time.

 

[Celebrim]

kigmatzomat: Sure, page 150 PH at the top of the page second column. Arrows and/or wands fall under 'stowed or sheathed weapon' I'd assume. Also there is a detailed discussion at the wizards website in the series of stories demonstrating obscure rules, and I think there may be a question and answer in the FAQ.

As a side note, as a DM I'm all for destroying items (which is why I'm interested in someone using a more 1st edition mechanic), but I tend to give non-liquid objects a degree of cold immunity, say 1/4 damage. So probably the only thing I might have forced to make a saving throw from 11 points of cold damage would be exposed potions/holy water or other objects containing liquid. But then again, if all the wands are bone, wood, coral, or what not, perhaps sudden cold would make them splinter. Did your players make a fuss?

 

[kigmatzomat]

Don't fight the archer fight his bow

Anybody forced an archer into melee and then dealt with him the right way? You know what I'm saying: attack the bow. By the SRD a spear has hardness 5 & 2HP. Figure a well made composite bow is a bit stronger with 5HP and any good power attack shot will shatter it like kindling.

Then there's the more ranged options; alchemist's fire. No save and only requires a touch attack. Given the number of times it seems to roll up as a mundane-exceptional treasure I see it being used quite a lot, especially in concert with flasks of regular oil. Even if it misses the splash can work well on a pack of closely packed people, especially if used as a held action vs. casting. "Darn, I missed hitting the mage directly but I splashed him for a point of damage forcing a concentration check and nicked the archer."

BTW: I found another mistake in the save-fumble item destruction that happened in my game. Seems that items only take 1/4 damage from cold and 1/2 damage from other energies (barring a particular weakness like fire & paper). This is done pre-hardness, cutting down further on the destruction.
This still doesn't change my opnion that a fireball will ruin exposed arrows on a fumble just as a matter of course.
(Q: Exactly how fireproof are feathers?
A: Very much not.)

 

[Spatzimaus]

It's not like there hasn't been enough argument on this one, but I'd like to point out something people have glossed over in the melee vs. ranged comparisons.

Attacks of Opportunity.

Archer doesn't threaten, so he doesn't get AoOs. His attacks are limited to the Full Attack action he'll take, and if hasted his Partial action as well.

Swordsman gets his attacks, but he also gets AoOs. Even without Combat Reflexes, there'll usually be SOME point in the round where he gets to take an AoO on the bad guy, at his full BAB. In general, the damage lost by being forced to move+attack instead of Full Attack should be made up for by even one AoO.

I had a Psychic Warrior with a Glaive, Psionic Charge, Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and a 50' base movement. She'd charge up to the bad guys, hit one of them, and then do 3 or 4 AoOs as they tried either to get to her or go past her. Sure, it was less consistent than the Archer's damage, but it had a far greater effect on the battle's outcome thanks to Stand Still.

 

[kigmatzomat]

kigmatzomat: Sure, page 150 PH at the top of the page second column. Arrows and/or wands fall under 'stowed or sheathed weapon' I'd assume. Also there is a detailed discussion at the wizards website in the series of stories demonstrating obscure rules, and I think there may be a question and answer in the FAQ.

Which will hopefully be covered in 3e Revised. Oh, and I'm not sure if these wands would count as being truly "stowed & sheathed" since they were on a bandolier across the chest in both cases. Whether the bandoliers count as "sheathed" will depend on what they are made of I guess.

As a side note, as a DM I'm all for destroying items (which is why I'm interested in someone using a more 1st edition mechanic), but I tend to give non-liquid objects a degree of cold immunity, say 1/4 damage.

Go back and check the breaking/damaging items section like I quouted in my previous post. Items *do* take partial damage from energy most of the time. But I'm partial to lots of "irritation" damage for flavor; losing 10 feet of that silk rope coiled around your waist as a belt, burning off a mundane cloak, trashing a nearby tent, that kind of stuff. I lump arrows into that category since burning the feathers off makes them useless for now but the fletcher skill can restore them in an evening.

But then again, if all the wands are bone, wood, coral, or what not, perhaps sudden cold would make them splinter. Did your players make a fuss?

Fortunately not. I have *good* players. They rolled the fumble, they looked up the rules on item destruction. And, apparently, they misread it and I didn't catch it. I really didn't do anything much other than find the save & item hardness/hp for them. Fortunately that was the end of the game session so I can undo that without much problem I think.

Oh, and not all wands have to be wood/bone/etc. There can be metal wands but they are rare. I figure I'll have a 20% markup for steel wands, worth it for the double hardness and increased HPs. I can even see someone willing to pay out for the mithral or adamantite wands.

 

[Petrosian]

Re: Don't fight the archer fight his bow

[/B][/QUOTE]

Anybody forced an archer into melee and then dealt with him the right way? You know what I'm saying: attack the bow. By the SRD a spear has hardness 5 & 2HP. Figure a well made composite bow is a bit stronger with 5HP and any good power attack shot will shatter it like kindling.

Here we go again.

OK first off, the bow weakness to sunder is a myth. Unless all your 2e longsword toters still carry those weapons, you will notice that , hey you did, a spear, an axe and many other melee weapons are just as sunderable. So, unless you ONLY sunder archers, or unless all your meleers wield maces and longswords like good 2e characters, the sunder issue is rather moot.

However, since th archer weapon, like the meleer's is GMWed only weapons at least that enhanced can even try it. unless all your minions are toting similar +4 or so enhancements, they cannot do any damage.

Now for the real error. before fire damage is resolved, it is halved against objects and then gets the hardness. So, any round in which your alchemists fre does 12 damage, it will hurt the bow.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Re: Re: Don't fight the archer fight his bow

OK first off, the bow weakness to sunder is a myth. Unless all your 2e longsword toters still carry those weapons, you will notice that , hey you did, a spear, an axe and many other melee weapons are just as sunderable.

I didn't say "weakness" I said "forgotten tactic." Fact is, attacking a weapon is rarely a good idea since it evokes attacks of opportunity. Unless you have a *really* good chance of destroying the weapon it will just cause you grief. *BUT* the target can't make AoO with a ranged weapon while in melee combat without evoking an AoO on themself. You then have the opportunity to make TWO "strike weapon" attacks or inflict normal damage in addition to the weapon break attack.

And no, most of my players don't use long swords. They like scimitars and staves. Wait, they can sunder with those too.

However, since th archer weapon, like the meleer's is GMWed only weapons at least that enhanced can even try it. unless all your minions are toting similar +4 or so enhancements, they cannot do any damage.

Unless you can point to a FAQ, errata or Sage citation, I wouldn't apply that rule to a projectile weapon. I don't apply it to magic cloaks and other items that are enchanted but not intended to be slammed into opponents. Why should bows get the bonus?

Now for the real error. before fire damage is resolved, it is halved against objects and then gets the hardness. So, any round in which your alchemists fre does 12 damage, it will hurt the bow.

Ahh, but I wasn't discussing catching the BOW on fire. I was talking about setting the ARROWS on fire. Feathers would have the same, if not greater, vulnerability to fire that paper has because they are so exposed.
No feathers = no fletching = no aerodynamic flight = no useful arrows.

And as a side note, real world bowstrings are notoriously vulnerable to fire & cold attacks. High surface area/mass ratio combined with being under high tension means a high likelihood of breakage. I'd also rule that water-based attacks lessen the strength bonus (if any) of bows when the string stretches and/or loses elasticity.

Permanent damage to the bow? No
One to two rounds of lost attacks while the archer restrings? Yes

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Re: Re: Don't fight the archer fight his bow

OK first off, the bow weakness to sunder is a myth. Unless all your 2e longsword toters still carry those weapons, you will notice that , hey you did, a spear, an axe and many other melee weapons are just as sunderable. So, unless you ONLY sunder archers, or unless all your meleers wield maces and longswords like good 2e characters, the sunder issue is rather moot.[/B][/QUOTE]

Not true.

A sunder attempt against a wielded melee weapon requires an opposed attack roll -- a 50-50 proposition in a fair fight, plus an AoO.

A bow is an object in hand and not a wielded weapon. The AC of the bow will be 10 + 5 {for in hand} + Dex -1 {for large object} = ~20 AC; middle level challenges will hit that 60%-90% of the time. And no AoO.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

A quick preusal of the faq turned up nothing for me with my limited skills. But a archer wearing a spiked gauntlet(or gauntlet for that matter) does he threaten the area around him while using the bow?

I'd say no, but I'm not sure.