I'm annoyed at archers.

[hong]

Re: Throwing my hat in the ring

The melee combatant has a lot more versatility, with access to all sorts of combat maneuvers, the ability to threaten an area around him and take AoOs, & no problems regarding ammunition, etc. The melee combatant can disarm, trip, sunder, bull rush, overrun, cause subdual damage, etc.

However, few of these are really relevant when it comes to fighting bigass monsters. Said bigass monsters often also have very scary specials that only come into play in melee: energy drain, ability drain, poison, improved grab, swallow whole, etc.

In comparison, the archer is a one-trick pony. He causes damage and that's all he's got.

However, it's a trick that has surprisingly widespread applicability.


Hong "not to mention it gets the chicks" Ooi

 

[Zad]

Speaking as one of these evil archer types...

I'm just one data point. The constraints of the individual campaign and the individual characters will change things a great deal. However it's my opinion that things are not too out of whack.

In the earlier levels, I was the big artillery. Mostly because I was a consistent source of damage. The mage could do more, sure. But he was resource limited, and there were saving throws to be made or blown. My arrows did steady, reliable damage.

As things have progressed, I am still one of the major sources of party damage. And again, my virtue is that I'm reasonably consistent. (Barring constructs - evil wicked things.)

The paladin can do as much or easily more damage than I do in a round. He has to be close of course, and things like the enemy being a demon help a lot, as does a lower AC so he can power attack. But he can trump me in some situations. And of course he can take the abuse far better than I.

The rogue looks like she's rolling damage for a fireball, not a melee attack, when those sneak attacks go off. Again, the opportunity needs to arise, but with her stealth and movement capabilities, it's not very hard to set up.

The mage.... he scares me. The no-save meteor swarm was rather large. His huge virtue is that he can hit multiple targets. He can take out an entire room full of monsters - I can really only lay into one at a time. This applies to the cleric and druid as well.

And let's not forget that there's more to the game than combat people. I have some flexibility but not tons. The mage, cleric, and druid can tailor themselves to any situation given some prep time. Even something as simple as Dispel Magic is an enabler that allows other party members to be more effective. That's something you can't measure in "Damage per round".

I have walked this path. I don't feel it's out of line with the rest of the party.

 

[comrade raoul]

Re: Re: Throwing my hat in the ring

Hong "not to mention it gets the chicks" Ooi

...blame it on him.

 

[mkletch]

Re: GMW, Archers, etc.

Archer str bonus maxes out at str 18 (+4 to damage).

Actually, nowhere is a maximum for strength bows stated. The table only goes to +4 for prices, but you have the formula for them. You could have a Masterwork Mighty (+13) Long Composite Bow for the Krusk mentioned below that only costs 1700gp.

-Fletch!

 

[Bastoche]

Re: Re: GMW, Archers, etc.

Actually, nowhere is a maximum for strength bows stated. The table only goes to +4 for prices, but you have the formula for them. You could have a Masterwork Mighty (+13) Long Composite Bow for the Krusk mentioned below that only costs 1700gp.

-Fletch!

That would be a house rule IMO.

 

[Yellow Sign]

Humm, If your feed up with someone's Uber-Archer let alone Two Uber-Archers, do something about it. Have them fight is a tight 5 foot wide twisting tunnel and attack them from the front and the back. Attack them with giant skeletons or other creature that is immune or resistant to piercing attacks. Have a evil mage cast Dispel Magic on all those Greater Magic Weapon bows and arrows. I don't care how powerful they think their Archers are. You as a GM can do something to make them sweat alittle.
Now if you are upset that your melee fighter is getting out shined by the above said Uber-Archer, thats just sour grapes. I would just worry about your character and not someone else who is "stealing" your spot light. There is more to gaming than who does the most damage. I played a archer and I got bored with him because thats all he could do!

My two cents.

 

[Endur]

Mighty Composite > +4

You raise an interesting point. Storm Giants are equipped with +14 Mighty Composite Bows. On the other hand, all of the Gods in Faerun and DDG are limited to +4 Mighty Bows.

So, it might be that if you are huge size, you can use a +14 mighty bow, but medium size creatures are restricted to +4.

Tom

Actually, nowhere is a maximum for strength bows stated. The table only goes to +4 for prices, but you have the formula for them. You could have a Masterwork Mighty (+13) Long Composite Bow for the Krusk mentioned below that only costs 1700gp.

-Fletch!

 

[Rackhir]

Re: Mighty Composite > +4

You raise an interesting point. Storm Giants are equipped with +14 Mighty Composite Bows. On the other hand, all of the Gods in Faerun and DDG are limited to +4 Mighty Bows.

So, it might be that if you are huge size, you can use a +14 mighty bow, but medium size creatures are restricted to +4.

Tom

The rules are somewhat ambigious on the point of "Mighty" bows. There is nothing I have seen in "official" material, that states that a composite bow is limited to a maximum of +4, but there is also nothing that states that it isn't and that is the maximum value that is shown.

Either side can be argued with equal reasonability and both have good arguments. So I'd say it's one of those things that ultimately comes down to a decision by the DM and trying to argue the point is fairly useless.

In any case unless you are hitting very high levels (say 15+) when stat boost items are common as dirt, most normal archers aren't going to have a strength bonus that is going to exceed +4 any way given the need for high dex. Archers can't dump all their increases/bonuses into pumping just one stat like a melee character can.

 

[the Jester]

Re: Mighty Composite > +4

You raise an interesting point. Storm Giants are equipped with +14 Mighty Composite Bows. On the other hand, all of the Gods in Faerun and DDG are limited to +4 Mighty Bows.

So, it might be that if you are huge size, you can use a +14 mighty bow, but medium size creatures are restricted to +4.

Tom

I think that in a previous thread on this topic, there was some sort of formula figured out for how good a mighty bow of a given size could be.

Note that composite shortbows only go up to +2.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

A few additional points...

(1) The PHB-only archer does not seem out of hand to me. I wouldn't touch most PrCs with a 10' pole, though.

(2) Against a single Big Boss monster it is very convenient to be the guy in back, and not the melee grunt who is eaten first. This is not a problem in 3e invented by 3e. If anything it is less of a problem now than before -- more dynamic movement makes being within 30' of the brawl unsafe.

(3) Against multiple opponents, a tactical savvy PC can do amazing things with Spring Attack + Cleave + Reach.

(4) Did I mention Obscuring Mist yet? Yes? Well I will again. Players and DMs often overlook the value of reshaping the battlefield early in the combat. This is devastating against both wizards and archers.