I'm done with 3.5

[fusangite]

Where I work (a non-profit member association), we have a theory about customer complaints. If one customer complains, it's probably not an issue. I'd bet on "user error." If three people complain, it's probably not an issue but we might want to look into it. Once a half-a-dozen or more people complain, we know there's a problem somewhere we should look into.

With the sheer amount of people who throw out the "AOO hate," I think it's clear that there is a problem somewhere for a good amount of people. Even if you and I don't have a problem, surely we can understand the fact that some people do. Furthermore, enough people have a problem that it's difficult to dismiss as "user error."

This is a very solid observation. I hope 4E kills them. They are not just a "communication problem," (the universal term for demonstrably failed political policies too).

There are lots of rules that were communicated a lot worse in the past that people understood right away nevertheless. I recall that in AD&D, the words "high" and "low" were used randomly and interchangeable in the explanations of armour class. Sometimes an AC of 10 was called "very high" and other times "very low." Yet nobody failed to grasp the system, despite profoundly opaque language on the part of designers.

 

[Presto2112]

Well, I'm done with D&D 3.5. I'm going to take a step back from the rules bloat, the awkward mechanics (AOO anyone?), the endless prestige classes, feats, spells, player options, DM options, and the book treadmill that has become the current version of D&D. I need a simpler system. I'm pulled the old boxed sets out and re-read the basic and expert rules. I was delighted to read through something that no longer gave me the "gamer headache". It's so much easier to digest than the out of control monster 3.5 has become. Maybe I'll check out C&C and see how that goes.

You'll be missed at the table, my good man.

As for myself, while I certainly understand your fatigue over the rules bloat, I don't necessarily share it. We've collective done enough AoOs now that I'm comfortable with them. Turning undead - we're using a variation of the alternate turn undead rules in Complete Divine. I think we just may even have a growing grasp (pun intended) on Grappling. LOL, it took the better part of 5 1/2 years, but we're almost there.

There are still head scratching issues, though. We haven't done a whole lot of mounted combat, and I was shown my ignorance of the Sundering rules this past weekend.

However, in an effort to hold back the tide, we've essentially put a cap on the books that will be allowed into the game. a big cap, but it's a cap nonetheless.

I'm not sure I'd be able to go back to something simpler, like the old box set, or even C&C. Now that the 3.5 rules are in front of me, and I'm mostly familiar with them, I'd sincerely miss them when they're gone.

 

[Edgewood]

You'll be missed at the table, my good man.

Fear not my friend. I'll be poking around here and there. We still have some loose ends that need tying up

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

As I said in the GURPS thread, I switched to GURPS 4th edition when I realized that after I introduced all the house rules into my D&D game that I wanted, it wouldn't even be D&D anymore.

So yeah, you're not alone.

 

[Doug McCrae]

There's only one problem with AoOs - they are caused by leaving a square rather than entering. People find this deeply counterintuitive.

IIRC B/X D&D actually had an AoO, despite being widely regarded as D&D at its simplest, caused when you moved away from an enemy.

 

[jeffh]

Having worked in tech support and customer service for many years, I can tell you that it is entirely possible for a bunch of people to complain about something and it still be entirely user error.

And the source is usually something un- or poorly explained or otherwise counterintuitive in the interface or documentation. So no, not entirely user error.

 

[jeffh]

IIRC B/X D&D actually had an AoO, despite being widely regarded as D&D at its simplest, caused when you moved away from an enemy.

Or tried to cast a spell in front of one. I think.

 

[Razz]

Let me get this straight.

You've bogged yourself down with D&D rules and you're complaining about the 3.5E system as if it was D&D's fault?

All you need is the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and the Monster Manual. There's your simple (and rather boring, though that's just me and my group's feelings) D&D game. You have 6 ability scores with streamlined bonuses and penalties, 11 classes, a solid chunk of feats, one chapter on Combat you have to worry about, the skills, and a horde of typical D&D spells. You're done.

If you added on a dozen other D&D books to the table and are now complaining about it, that's your fault. Not 3.5E. I, for one, enjoy the "bloat" as everyone calls it. It's fun for me and my players to know there really is a multitude of styles and options to our game. It makes our world more realistic and ever more surprising and suspenseful.

Try playing D&D with just those three core books. You might feel better. However, if your players enjoy those optional books then I think you should tell them and tell them you're introducing things very slowly into your games, so no optional books until you feel confident about adding them. Or if you're never going to introduce them at all.

Me, I can never have enough prestige classes, feats, spells, psionics, epic material, etc. It's like walking through Candy Land for me.

 

[Edgewood]

I will add that I do understand how AOO's work. My preference not to use them is driven more by a desire for a more streamlined mechanic that involves combat (which is the most rules intensive mechanic in D&D, aside from the magic rules). Again, AOO wasn't chosen specifically, it's just one example of a set of unwieldy rules that I have less patience for.

My decision of course is purely for my own reasons. I respect all players who want to stick with 3.5. I also totally respect anyone who says that they enjoy the current incarnation of D&D with its plethora of books and options. I'm of the opinion however that it's simply not working for me.

I know myself very well however. I'll drop away from it for a while, and then one day I'll find myself thumbing through the DMG or PHB and think to myself, "this wasn't so bad...." and I'll wind up right back where I started. It's cyclical. But, until then, it's time to explore new lands.

 

[Meeki]

I hear white wolf has a new base system coming out or is already out. I dont know if its simpler but its something different. Not sure how you would feel about the vampire/were wolf/mage games.