Immortals Handbook (aka The Worship Points System)

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Zelda mate!

I am kind of curious how you like WotH 3rd edition D&D take on gods this far.

The Good
- I do like some of the Salient Divine Abilities
- Lower levels promote more interaction

The Bad
- HD/Level ignorance
- Avatar treatment
- Don't utilise Epic Levels or Items or Magic (understandable but very annoying)
- Lack of Cosmic Scale
- Deities Immune to everything but the +5 kitchen sink (reducing interaction)
- Uber-deity 'cop-out'
- Challenge Rating 'cop-out'

- Seemingly (?) little worshipper/clergy information.

- Virtually no Divine Monsters*
- No Arch-Devils/Demon Princes et al*

*Hopefully we will see these at a later date!?

I myself find it truly lame, unfortunaly, just like I expected, though I was hoping for something more.

I wouldn't say truly lame, especially not before seeing the book. However as something I have been waiting for, seemingly forever, I don't see it living up to my expectations...then again I doubt it probably could have!?

I don't like the fact that there is going to be epic books, but gods aren't 'epic' for one thing.

That is one of the most insane decisions ever! When you think about it, fully 90% of people who buy Deities & Demigods are going to buy the Epic Level Handbook anyway. So making them co-dependant would hardly be the business bugbear they may have feared!

Lets face it, if any group was going to benefit from Epic Rules its going to be deities.

Personally I think they should have done it by combining the rules for Deities & Epic characters and releasing it as a core rulebook. Then they could have subsequently released Deities & Demigods with half dozen or more Pantheons derived from the new core rules.

I don't think they are powerful enough. Or maybe it is, that they are powerful in a wrong way. I sure don't like how some of those special abilites sound like.

I think they may be deceptively powerful. But that is no excuse for HD/Level ignorance.

Another point is that they don't really seem to be able (or willing?) to equate divinity in Challenge Ratings.

For me stats and hitpoints and levels do mean a lot, when I see them in paper. Never mind what other abilites they have, if they gods get shaft on basic level of actual game system, they became sorry creatures compared to my idea what such beings should be.

I agree.

Yep, my opinion is more complicated one, but english comes slow to me now, too tired I'm afraid.

Thats okay Zelda mate!

IMO only, of course.

Of course!

Well, maybe they do it right in 4th edition, then again, probably not.

Maybe in ten years time I will be working on the 4th Edition Deities & Demigods!?

Krusty, I'd for one, rather see your original variation of gods, it sounded much better in my mind, than what I am seeing now.

It would be silly for me to ignore staple WotC precedents at this stage - however, perhaps I will add an optional section on an alternative cosmic scaling (HD/Level) for deities?

 

[The Burned Man]

"Not sure about the validity of the web enhancement - a Quasi-deity with 13 hit points, a Demigod with 30 hit points.

One other point is that they seem to have given him an extra 20 to AC for no apparent reason!?"

Maybe you should think about more as utilizing the "divine template" for characters with whom low-level characters can interact.

Also its the god of beggars!

You could also use this for "low-level" deities who live on the material plane. Ie a 10 th level Fighter who drinks the blood of a dead god and is imbued with divinity (divine rank:0).

A 20th level warrior would have an edge over him in feats but lacking in raw power.

Maybe thats what their going for..

Ie slap a divine rank of 0 on a dire rat and you have The Rat God.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Burned Man mate!

Don't worry - got your second email - I'm looking into things!

"Not sure about the validity of the web enhancement - a Quasi-deity with 13 hit points, a Demigod with 30 hit points.

One other point is that they seem to have given him an extra 20 to AC for no apparent reason!?"

Maybe you should think about more as utilizing the "divine template" for characters with whom low-level characters can interact.

Also its the god of beggars!

You could also use this for "low-level" deities who live on the material plane. Ie a 10 th level Fighter who drinks the blood of a dead god and is imbued with divinity (divine rank:0).

A 20th level warrior would have an edge over him in feats but lacking in raw power.

Maybe thats what their going for..

Ie slap a divine rank of 0 on a dire rat and you have The Rat God.

I agree they are obviously stretching things to accomodate low/mid-level play.

I replied to this thread in the General Discussion Forum about equating Divine Ranks with Challenge Ratings.

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9543

Its still 'work in progress'...but 'getting there'.

When I get CoC and D&Dg I should have a clearer picture.

 

[Knight Otu]

Hello, Upper_Krust

Only happens in the long posts doesn't it...

And this was a post that I didn't prepare ...

Shouldn't be too hard to pin down.

The Titans are either Greater Gods or Elder Gods.

The 8 Victors are either Intermediate Gods or Greater Gods.

Others are Demigods and Lesser Gods.

Heralds may well be Quasi/Hero-deities?

Denev is the key. Either she is Divine Rank 20 or 25. After determining that the others fall into place.

I admit that with DR 30 I was propably going overboard. Titans would likely be Elder Gods, with the shattered ones being close to Greater Gods at DR 21 (maybe depends on how much Denev was weakened after the Titanswar?).
Of the "Demigods", Nemorga and Erias are likely to be Intermediate Gods.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

 

[S'mon]

Hi Simon!

Nice, is it many pages (I can't remember)?

Not very many. There's precedent for 'evil saints' in fantasy literature - eg Fritz Leiber has St Hisvet of the Rat God in Nehwon.
Greg Stafford has Jar-El the Razoress, sword-saint of the Lunar Goddess in Glorantha.

 

[Bjorn Doneerson]

What was that about a 12 dimensional being, I'm confused!(I should know, It's a familar feeling)

Hehehe, Jar-El sounds like something from a superman comic.

I think Steve Martin did the "ramblin' guy" thing on a record called "Let's Get Small"

I don't think there should be str caps, but at lets say 50 str, gods of strength can basically have "near-infinite" lifting capacity but still have the same str bonus added to attacks. But thats just me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello, Upper_Krust

Hi Knight Otu mate!

(I'll respond more to the PR thread tomorrow morning!)

I admit that with DR 30 I was propably going overboard. Titans would likely be Elder Gods, with the shattered ones being close to Greater Gods at DR 21 (maybe depends on how much Denev was weakened after the Titanswar?).
Of the "Demigods", Nemorga and Erias are likely to be Intermediate Gods.

Of course this is all just my opinion.

I am actually putting together the details for the Celtic Pantheon at the moment.

I have decided upon 20 gods (perhaps 21) of which one: Danu will be an Elder Goddess (In fact Danu is in a lot of Pantheons aka. Gaea; Jord; Aditi etc.) and is a lot like Denev - who was almost certainly originally based on Gaea.

I have her at DR25. HD/Levels are currently penciled in at 110.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Simon!

Not very many. There's precedent for 'evil saints' in fantasy literature - eg Fritz Leiber has St Hisvet of the Rat God in Nehwon.
Greg Stafford has Jar-El the Razoress, sword-saint of the Lunar Goddess in Glorantha.

Jar-El the Razoress - she sounds familiar...didn't Thrin hire her as a mercenary once?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Bjorn mate!

What was that about a 12 dimensional being, I'm confused! (I should know, It's a familar feeling)

We exist in 5 dimensions; Time Lords exist in more than 5 and can therefore be in two (or more) places at once*.

*Depending on the power of the Time Lord itself.

Simon may remember Grimnismal from the Slaine 2000AD comic strip - as I recall he existed in 9 dimensions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/spacechat/livechat/michio_kaku.shtml

Hehehe, Jar-El sounds like something from a superman comic.

I am sure Superman would appreciate the Infinitaur monster in the Immortals Handbook - it is partially based on one of his greatest foes...

I think Steve Martin did the "ramblin' guy" thing on a record called "Let's Get Small"

It sounded familiar when you initially mentioned it - though since I haven't heard any records from Steve Martin; but have seen all his movies he must reference it within one of them!?

I don't think there should be str caps,

I agree, totally unnecessary in 3rd Ed.

but at lets say 50 str, gods of strength can basically have "near-infinite" lifting capacity but still have the same str bonus added to attacks. But thats just me.

Well they do seem to have a Salient Divine Ability called Indomitable Strength which gives them +25 bonus to all strength checks.

 

[S'mon]

Hi Simon!

Jar-El the Razoress - she sounds familiar...didn't Thrin hire her as a mercenary once?

That was an alternare Jar-El of mine - a Thyatian gladiator from Mystara. I based her off Stafford's original, yes.