Immortals Handbook - Ascension Discussion

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

I noticed that there's a big problem when it comes to summoning creatures with extra HD. Let's take a quasi-deity 25th-level human cleric (ECL 45) with double Evil portfolios. He has Automatic Metamagic Capacity x6, which he can use to heighten his summon monster ix spell-like ability to a summon monster xv. This lets him summon an ECL 30 and CR 20 "balor" (for the purpose of this example, I'm assuming that a balor is supposed to be a 15 HD hero-deity). Now, the balor's HD gets tripled to 45 HD because of the cleric's Perfect Summoning (Evil) ability, which is already quite overpowered considering that a 45 HD hero-deity is ECL 60 and CR 40, even more powerful than the cleric himself. But wait, because of the outsider advancement rules, a 45 HD balor gets 9 divine abilities and a +9 divine bonus among other things, supercharging it to ECL 90 and CR 60. And remember that the cleric can potentially use summon monster xv twice per round: once as a swift action and once as a standard action.

It might be that (in your example) that the cleric has probably too many metamagic capacity feats. IIRC, a 'resonable' amount of them is 1 per 4 HD over 20th. (Plus or minus one or so) So said 25th level cleric should only have 2-3.
Also, unless said monster has an ability tied to it's HD, the extra HD are not too much of a benefit. Summoning things like Psuedonatural Cryohydras with triple HD might be a bit extreme, however...

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

It might be that (in your example) that the cleric has probably too many metamagic capacity feats. IIRC, a 'resonable' amount of them is 1 per 4 HD over 20th. (Plus or minus one or so) So said 25th level cleric should only have 2-3.
Also, unless said monster has an ability tied to it's HD, the extra HD are not too much of a benefit. Summoning things like Psuedonatural Cryohydras with triple HD might be a bit extreme, however...

U_K said a while back that the maximum spell level an immortal can cast is equal to 1/2 his caster level (rounded up). A 25 HD quasi-deity has a caster level of 29th, so he should be able to cast 15th-level spells. 6 free levels of metamagic on a 9th-level spell gives you a 15th-level spell, so there you go.

Also, unless said monster has an ability tied to it's HD, the extra HD are not too much of a benefit. Summoning things like Psuedonatural Cryohydras with triple HD might be a bit extreme, however...

But an outsider gets special advancement when its HD increases, according to Ascension, so an outsider with thrice its normal HD is thrice as powerful.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Fey are just as flesh and bone as they are, so are constructs made of flesh and bone, as are outsiders originating from the mortal plane.

Aberrations, more than any other type, truly fit the definition of outlandishly abnormal. They are intended to defy all reason and logic...including statistical reason and logic.

What I consider to be abnormal in terms of physiology is anything at all that is blatantly abnormal (aboleth, etherguants, mind flayers, ect.) and anything infused with magical or psionic energy...which can severely affect things in an abnormal way.

Just because it looks like a dog and barks like a dog, doesn't mean it isn't an awakened shapechanged celestial tarrasque wizard.

Fey are spirits of nature, Outsiders are evolved spirits of the dead and undead are spirits trapped between worlds.

Constructs are powered by magic.

Aberrations are not spirits and are not powered by magic. Anatomically they may be weird, but they are creatures and not immortals.

Those so called Outsiders like Tieflings and that sort of jive are not outsiders by any reckoning of mine, they are mortals.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

I noticed that there's a big problem when it comes to summoning creatures with extra HD. Let's take a quasi-deity 25th-level human cleric (ECL 45) with double Evil portfolios. He has Automatic Metamagic Capacity x6, which he can use to heighten his summon monster ix spell-like ability to a summon monster xv. This lets him summon an ECL 30 and CR 20 "balor" (for the purpose of this example, I'm assuming that a balor is supposed to be a 15 HD hero-deity). Now, the balor's HD gets tripled to 45 HD because of the cleric's Perfect Summoning (Evil) ability, which is already quite overpowered considering that a 45 HD hero-deity is ECL 60 and CR 40, even more powerful than the cleric himself. But wait, because of the outsider advancement rules, a 45 HD balor gets 9 divine abilities and a +9 divine bonus among other things, supercharging it to ECL 90 and CR 60. And remember that the cleric can potentially use summon monster xv twice per round: once as a swift action and once as a standard action.

Well, firstly I wouldn't give something so summoned anything more than the HD boost.

Secondly, even if we did, the Balor in question would be a Lesser Deity and only gain five new divine abilities +10 on all scores and a +5 divine bonus since the core Balor is already a defacto Hero-deity.

Thirdly, the fact that the Balor would be more powerful than the quasi-deity suggests to me it sure as heck wouldn't do what the quasi-deity said.

Fourthly, said summoning if on the mortal plane would likely legislate a breaking of the divine interference rules.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

U_K said a while back that the maximum spell level an immortal can cast is equal to 1/2 his caster level (rounded up).

Yes but you still need six Auto. Metamagic Capacity feats to reach the maximum of your example.

A 25 HD quasi-deity has a caster level of 29th, so he should be able to cast 15th-level spells. 6 free levels of metamagic on a 9th-level spell gives you a 15th-level spell, so there you go.

But an outsider gets special advancement when its HD increases, according to Ascension, so an outsider with thrice its normal HD is thrice as powerful.

No wonder they have revised summoning for 4E.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Okay, so since Superior Summoning and Perfect Summoning end up letting you summon creatures more powerful than you even without the rules for outsider advancement, and since Improved Summoning grants something that's very common in the immortal levels anyway, why not revise them to give feats and divine/cosmic abilities instead?

Option A:
Improved Summoning: Grants all summoned creatures a bonus feat of your choice. The granted feat is chosen at the time this feat is taken, and cannot be changed. The creatures need not meet the prerequisites of the feat, but you need to meet them.
Superior Summoning: Grants all summoned creatures a bonus divine ability of your choice. The granted divine ability is chosen at the time this divine ability is taken, and cannot be changed. The creatures need not meet the prerequisites of the divine ability, but you need to meet them.
Perfect Summoning: Grants all summoned creatures a bonus cosmic ability of your choice. The granted cosmic ability is chosen at the time this cosmic ability is taken, and cannot be changed. The creatures need not meet the prerequisites of the cosmic ability, but you need to meet them.

Option B:
Improved Summoning: As Option A?
Superior Summoning: As Option A, except grants 3 feats instead of 1 divine ability.
Perfect Summoning: As Option A, except grants 3 divine abilities instead of 1 cosmic ability.

Option C:
Improved Summoning: As Option A?
Superior Summoning: As Option A, except grants 2 feats instead of 1 divine ability.
Perfect Summoning: As Option A, except grants 2 divine abilities instead of 1 cosmic ability.

Which would be the most balanced option?

EDIT: I think it would be best to impose a hard and fast rule that an immortal can never summon anything with a CR greater than 1/2 the immortal's HD + the immortal's divine rank, just like the limit Adjuration imposes. With enough caster level boosts (from the Magic portfolio, from the Archmage or Hierophant prestige class, and from the paragon template granted by the Lord of Perfection cosmic ability) and enough Automatic Metamagic Capacities, it's already possible to heighten summon monster ix high enough to summon a creature with a higher CR than your CR, even without any HD multipliers.

 

[mercucio]

Who said a balor would advance in divine rank in this example? UK's spiritual advancement may be reasonable for normal creature encounter, but it certainly need not apply to summoned creatures.

 

[EarthSeraphEdna]

Does Dead Zone nullify the supernatural abilities of you and your allies? As it is, it doesn't affect the items and artifacts of you and your allies, which is strange, considering that Dead Zone nullifies your innate supernatural abilities, yet it doesn't nullify supernatural abilities contained in artifacts.

 

[dante58701]

00.024% Orichalcum/99.986% Adamantine

What are the benefits and requirements?

Shouldn't adamantine Grant 1 virtual size category over the base Steel (Iron) weapon?

If so, would this up the Minimum Strength?

I checked the math on it and I keep getting +1 VSC over Steel for Adamantine, +3 for .024 Orichalcum, for a total of +4 over the base Steel weapon (since steel is roughly the same weight as iron).

Of course this ends up being a bit lighter than a .19 Orichalcum/99.89 Steel alloy.

So...mixing adamantine with orichalcum is advantageous because it lightens your load a bit and lets you bypass damage reduction and hardness a bit easier.

 

[WarDragon]

Adamantine isn't any heavier than steel, just harder. Check the DMG, making an item of adamantine rather than steel has no effect on its weight.