Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[dante58701]

With them shooting out energy beams and destroying whole buildings made of stone. And entering other dimensions by meditating. I think that, some of them are vertainly epic, while others are near epic. Especially with their martial arts skills being so outrageous. Id put Ryu at about 24-27th level Ken at about 2 levels lower and Bison at about 37-47th level. Id also figive them esoteric abilities, like force field and possible Uncanny Force Mastery for Bison and maybe Holy Effect/Force Effect for Ryu. Though thats pure speculation, I definately believe them to be epic. And then there is Blanka...he learned his Electricity Effect by watching Electric Eels and his green skin by dousing himself liberally in plant juices, though by some rules he is a mutant.

 

[Pssthpok]

I think anyone from Street Fighter could be adequately represented through non-epic mechanics and PrCs.

 

[dante58701]

In theory most beings could. Afterall, wish can do anything, if ur willing to suck up to the DM enough. But the point isnt to debate whether or not someone is epic, but rather to propose ideas for epic level play. Streetfighter is certainly epic in many regards. Some of the things they do transcend mortal limitations. I dont exactly see world class martial artists shooting fireballs out of their arses with surprising regularity, nor do I see people floating around all willy nilly.

So many things they do can be defined as epic feats or esoteric abilities. And we are talking about the most powerful fighters in that world, a world where fighting abilities transcend commonly accepted limitations. Besides, it'll be fun.


And dont tell me Chun Li's defiance of gravity isnt epic. Or her roughly 15 kicks in 5 second with one leg is epic. Those moves alone are very epic.

Thilly

 

[Phantom Llama]

Well, 5 seconds is about 1 round.

In a round, a monk can do a full attack flurry for 5 attacks. That means to make 15 attacks one must Quicken Attack 10 times, for -50 BAB. If she had the Quickness esoteric (divine) ability, that drops to -45. That's an awful lot of levels, probably more than she deserves in even the most optimistic appraisals.

I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting something obvious though.

 

[Pssthpok]

Ah, dante... I'm never not tired of your lust for things over the top.
The Book of Nine Swords offers alternative ways to manage things like Street Fighter moves sans epic levels.
-Chun Li could have a 6th or 7th-level strike maneuver that enables her to make an incredible amount of kicks that equates to 1d6 per initiator level, putting her at 15th level at minimum if you want to wax specificity.
-Ken/Ryu could have a simple 2nd to 4th level maneuver that enables their Hadoken fireball move. Or make it a move that can be made as part of a stance using a full-attack action.
-Dalsim (sp?) could have a stance than lets him strike targets at a larger reach than 5 ft.
-Etc.
-So forth.
-Ad nauseum.

The trick to managing things like this is to not jump to the conclusion that epic is the only way to achieve impressive deeds. Try hardest to find the shortest path to that deed within reason and there you go. It's called Occam's Razor; you should use it to avoid automatically placing target designs in the epic levels.

The reason I say this is because epic invariably means HD, and with HD come a lot of things that ostensibly don't make sense for the designs in question. Like Chun Li. She shouldn't have tons of skill points beyond what she reveals; the same goes for guys like Guile and Sagat. Yeah, they're impressive, but making them epic only compounds the difficulty in designing them within the parameters given by the game paradigms. What good would making any of the Street Fighter characters with enough HD to warrant epic and divine feats do you when a) they can be done using different, simpler mechanics and b) those excessive HD feature other things that just don't jive with the character concepts in general.

 

[Phantom Llama]

The Book of Nine Swords

Bingo. That was probably it.

Perfect for representing the special-move based SF characters.

 

[WarDragon]

Ah, dante... I'm never not tired of your lust for things over the top.
The Book of Nine Swords offers alternative ways to manage things like Street Fighter moves sans epic levels.
-Chun Li could have a 6th or 7th-level strike maneuver that enables her to make an incredible amount of kicks that equates to 1d6 per initiator level, putting her at 15th level at minimum if you want to wax specificity.
-Ken/Ryu could have a simple 2nd to 4th level maneuver that enables their Hadoken fireball move. Or make it a move that can be made as part of a stance using a full-attack action.
-Dalsim (sp?) could have a stance than lets him strike targets at a larger reach than 5 ft.
-Etc.
-So forth.
-Ad nauseum.

Not only is this possible, but all the ones you mentioned are actually in the book.

 

[dante58701]

But not everyone has that book, I do, but I guess I didn't peruse it very thoroughly. I can see your point, but epic is all about over the top.

Just looked at the book again more thoroughly, indeed it would fit a streetfighter style setting. Nice call. Though Id still like to see some epic level humanoids.

Unfortunately it's mechanics are a bit sucky, I hate the whole idea of losing maneuvers you previously learned. It doesn't make sense at all. And that part about only being able to have a certain number ready...huh!!?!!?

Ud be better of becoming a warlock and using invocations or becoming a soulknife and taking a feat that lets you turn your mind blade into a guantlet, similar feats already exist.

 

[Pssthpok]

Well, not everyone has the IH, so it's sort of a moot point.
Again, you're free to do how you like, but I strongly suggest you avoid making characters epic just for the sake epic. It's pointless and indicative of a desire for power over good design.
The mechanics in Bo9S is sucky? That's a subjective thing to say, and a lot of people I know would disagree.
Insofar as losing maneuvers you already know, I guess that same logic applies to sorcerers and Vancian casters? Guess every spellcaster runs on sucky mechanics in your opinion...
The issue of having a certain number maneuvers ready at a time is a balance issue, but remember that Bo9S classes have no "per day" limit, just a "per encounter" limit, so they're actually more capable than the other classes you mentioned, sans the warlock.
Anyway, do what feels best to you, just remember that "cool" or "powerful" doesn't always mean "epic", sometimes it means just the opposite.

 

[dante58701]

I think Ill just agree to disagree. LOL!!!

As for sorcerers, their mechanics do suck. They rely on the trappings of traditional wizards to cast spells, I see intuitive magic as being unique to the individual, with no trappings of any sort. I would never have a sorcerer use components. It's just isn't very logical. The spell systems, while only moderately broken, does present a few problems when it comes right down to logistics.

I have always believed that when a person learns a skill or a trick of some sort, they are not going to forget it, short of amnesia or brain damage. I myself study martial arts and I still remember all those seemingly useless moves that aren't as nice as the more complex moves. Sure those tactics might seem useless, but I doubt someone is going to forget them. that would like forgetting how to ride a tricycle just because you now ride a harley.

It's a load of B.S., and for me, it isnt about making things more POWERFUL...I too dont like the excessive hit dice, though I do like the flexibility of a plethora of maneuvers that just don't seem to exist for most combat oriented characters. They need more monk oriented classes that allow for energy effects (even if they only do +1d6 or something) and they need more classes that bypass alignment constraints that are similar to the monk class (not everyone likes being lawful just to get martial arts skills).

Perhaps they even need a class that is a blend of fighter, monk, and warlock, without the alignment constraints.

And then there are all those class with limited spell progression, they'd be better off just erasing the spell progression and making classes like bard a prestige class, which is kinda what it used to be in OLD d&d.

Dont get me wrong, I love the system, but I would be lying if I said it wasnt flawed.




As for Vancian casters, I have no idea what those are.