Immortals Handbook - Epic Bestiary (Epic Monster Discussion)

[Pssthpok]

Vancian casters are the "cast-and-lose" sorts, like wizards.

Everything else is a matter of opinion.

 

[CRGreathouse]

As for sorcerers, their mechanics do suck. They rely on the trappings of traditional wizards to cast spells, I see intuitive magic as being unique to the individual, with no trappings of any sort. I would never have a sorcerer use components. It's just isn't very logical.

Funny, I think components make more sense for sorcerers than for wizards.

 

[dante58701]

Casting and losing makes sense for wizards...but martial arts maneuvers are not spells and should never be treated as such. Surely there should be limitations on how often on can use Ki based maneuvers, though it doesn't make sense the way they presented it. By losing abilities, they mean you trade in weaker moves for more powerful moves as you go up in levels. This is fundamentally flawed. It isnt like weaker moves are really going to have much of an impact, but the logistics behind this equation are bunk. Which is why it ruins the flavor of the class. If you could keep every move you learned and still only be able to prepare a certain number per day...that would be fine. Meditating upon desire makes sense. What doesnt make sense is that they completely forget what they once knew and can never use it again if they trade it in for something else. That is lame.

Not to mention...you shouldnt be able to "trade" in moves. It doesnt make sense.

Example...Orc one day knows Flaming Fist, Shatter Storm, and Gut Hurl. Then when he gains a level, he suddenly trades in Flaming Fist for Upper Chunk. It shouldnt be allowed. He should have a list of moves that he has learned along his path towards martial perfection, maybe more like a sorcerer. Though this list should be set. Once chosen a martial ability should be locked, not fluid. Sure they should only be able to expend so much KI on moves per day, but they should be able to expend this KI as they see fit.

As presented... the rules dictate you learn an ability...then trade it off at higher levels.

This leads to min/max characters, instead of characters who earned their wierd abilities by following a chain. Ki moves should be like a variation on the Feat System. Which would make much more sense. Though these Ki feats should only be available to special classes with Ki Energies to expend.

The psionics rules are similar to this but do not use a chain system like feats.

IMO the psychic warrior is more akin to Streetfighter/DBZ style characters than the WOTC Ki based characters.

Perhaps my favorite martial rules came from Oriental Adventures AD&D. They adressed this potential problem by completely avoiding it. They used a chain system similar to the feat system and it was quite balanced. It may have even been the inspiration for the feat system, though that's just conjecture on my part.

 

[Ltheb Silverfrond]

Funny, I think components make more sense for sorcerers than for wizards.

I think it could go either way, depending on the "flavor" you put on wizards and sorcerers. Personally, I have sorcerers use material components for the spell that are "related" to the spell but not always the same. (Same value if the spell requires an expensive component) Example: Fireball might be a few drops of lamp oil or Haste might need a pinch of sand from an hour glass. Stonesking might need a precious stone or gem worth the same required ammount. As long as it made sense for the spell, and it was at least as "rare" or expensive as the listed component, I'd let a sorcerer use it.

 

[dante58701]

Id rather work a sorcerer like a psion myself. And I wouldnt give them a familiar either.

The sorcerers in my campaigns end up being quite like psions anyways, though I like the distinction between magic and psionics since I use the "magic and psionics are different" and the "evolution" rules.

But I spose it would depend on bloodlines too. Some world's sorcerer's might be weaker and may not be able to readily tap their heritage...so components could be a must.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I think there is a world of difference between Streetfighter and DBZ characters in terms of power.

As others have speculated, you could probably detail all the Streetfighter characters with non-epic rules...I mean in Star Wars d20 only the Emperor is 20th-level!

So I think, while high-level (13-20th) none of them especially need to be epic.

Regarding the Sorcerer class, I have always viewed it as 3rd Edition's Psionicist in all but name.

I wonder are they contemplating a 'Magic Point' based class as a primary class in 4th Edition?

It would be so easy to setup a Magic Point system along the lines of the Epic Spell System (but built from the ground up, rather than from the sky down).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi guys!

Meant to ask you. What do you think of the idea that deities should have to pay for their size out of their pool of divine abilities.

e.g. Surtur is Titanic size. Should that mean he had to use five Divine Abilities to reach that size?

Its different when an already large creature ascends, because then their size is already paid for in terms of their ECL. But its different when creating an immortal from scratch who is already of a certain size.

I suppose there are two options.

1. Size should be paid for out of divine ability pool.

2. Size should just be factored into a beings ECL/CR extreneous from all other elements.

The problem with #2 is that its a free bonus then. If you have two gods of equal power why should one be Titanic 'just because', and the other not? Also, another problem with #2 is that it throws ECL out of whack in that you not only have to factor for size but you also then have to factor for extra (or more powerful rather) equipment due the increased ECL. So all this unbalances my otherwise impeccable method of determining immortal ECL/CR.

Any thoughts?

Should size be accountable, or should it be 'free', is what I am asking?

 

[Anabstercorian]

It should probably be accountable.

I admit I've been tempted to try statting out a Time Lord with nothing but Divine Immensity taken 200 times... It would go well in to larger than universe-sized!

 

[paradox42]

I know I had fun figuring out size values after giving my version of the Draeden Divine Immensity 14 times. I did that so the thing would be able to get itself down to Large size if it wanted to, to hide from creatures that are actually powerful enough to destroy it, but found to my delight that at the other end of the scale it can grow large enough to fit a planet-sized object in one of its mouths (thus, it can literally eat whole planets without even using its epic spells to carve them up first).

But honestly, size shouldn't be something one purchases with a divine ability- that just nerfs the big boys unnecessarily. Sure, their ECL is higher- in some cases much higher- but don't have them spend precious slots on it. Factor it in separate from other elements. If it unbalances your method of determining Immortal CR, then perhaps you should make that method more modular and less "this always gets the creature's CR up exactly X." I presume you're referring to the abilities granted by the Divinity templates other than the actual Divine abilities (which are supposed to be +1 ECL each of course)?

And to answer the concern in your post, why sould equipment always count the same ratio for everybody, really? Sure it's easy to add in the bonus that way, but how does that make sense from a world perspective? You know from my previous posts that I won't be using the 4-artifact rule, so I'll be re-jiggering that part of your ECL calculations for my own benefit anyway- and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If equipment counts for ECL at all, then it should logically be calculated just as any other special quality/monster ability is- as you say, different equipment has different properties.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey guys!

I noticed that about the Time Lord myself Anabstercorian.

I know I had fun figuring out size values after giving my version of the Draeden Divine Immensity 14 times. I did that so the thing would be able to get itself down to Large size if it wanted to, to hide from creatures that are actually powerful enough to destroy it, but found to my delight that at the other end of the scale it can grow large enough to fit a planet-sized object in one of its mouths (thus, it can literally eat whole planets without even using its epic spells to carve them up first).

But honestly, size shouldn't be something one purchases with a divine ability- that just nerfs the big boys unnecessarily.

But the flipside to that coin is they get the size, strength and base damage for free then.

Who the hell wants to be medium size when you can be titanic size 'for free'.

Sure, their ECL is higher- in some cases much higher- but don't have them spend precious slots on it. Factor it in separate from other elements. If it unbalances your method of determining Immortal CR, then perhaps you should make that method more modular and less "this always gets the creature's CR up exactly X." I presume you're referring to the abilities granted by the Divinity templates other than the actual Divine abilities (which are supposed to be +1 ECL each of course)?

I have divinity constructed so that your ECL is equal to your (Outsider) HD + Divinity Template. Its something I find works very well.

And to answer the concern in your post, why sould equipment always count the same ratio for everybody, really?

Its not that it always should, its that it always could.

Sure it's easy to add in the bonus that way, but how does that make sense from a world perspective?

They are spirits, not natural creatures. The sizes (and shapes) their manifestation's take is inherent to their power.

You know from my previous posts that I won't be using the 4-artifact rule, so I'll be re-jiggering that part of your ECL calculations for my own benefit anyway- and I'm sure I'm not the only one. If equipment counts for ECL at all, then it should logically be calculated just as any other special quality/monster ability is- as you say, different equipment has different properties.

I don't mind people using differnt rules for equipment and so forth, but I would like my rules for equipping immortals to be as simple as possible.

By keeping the base 'neat and tidy' it then makes things simpler to convert when you want to break from the norm.

For instance, as long as you stay within the HD parameters, you can determine instantly that each artifact is the equivalent (in terms of ECL) to the gods divine bonus.

So if Algol doesn't have any artifacts I know that I could give him the equivalent to +128 divine abilities.

Or if Surtur only has one artifact then he would need another +72 divine abilities to give him his full ECL/CR.