Impressions of the classes so far

[Waylander the Slayer]

Interesting replies so far. My general impression has been that the system is very flexible when it comes to character paths. The Witch seems a bit frontloaded, but that being said, it seems to be a character that is so cool that people might stick with it for a long time.


The mage blade seems a bit underpowered. Their saves and the mediocre hit dice and limited spell progression seem to make this class a bit weak. Further, it is the one class that requires high stats, almost across the board, to be effective.

What do you guys think of the feats? All the Cerimonial feats seem very good and the talents seem flavorful but a bit useless as far as comparitive power level goes.

I was considering picking up the blessed mage and improved leadership feats at first level. What do you think?

Here is a link to the same topic posted on MonteCook.com:
http://pub102.ezboard.com/fokayyourturnfrm32.showMessage?topicID=609.topic

 

[Merlion]

I have my doubts about the whole all poor saves for mageblades thing. However you must look at what the class does get...a +1 weapon at first level that gets a steadily higher enhancement bonus and which eventualy begins to defend itself from theft and that can be summoned to the mageblade over distance. The Shimmering Shield defensive ability. at 7th level, medium armor profciency with no loss of manuverability in said medium armor. At higher levels the ability to slice through wardings, parry spells, and eventualy slice through standing spell effects. Plus a few bonus feats.
And if you look you notice there are a lot of simple combat-enhancement spells.
I'd try it out as is and if I was disatisfied I'd see what the DM said about giving them either Fort or Will as good saves.
Blessed mage (again not having actualy got to play) looks like it would make a caster...especialy a Greenbond or Magister really kick butt at healing and enhancing...if you can get your party members to reveal there true names.
I still dont really see the Witch as "front loaded". you get your minor basic witchery power, and one manifestation at 1st level. And the manifestations scale with level...indeed some of them are really quite sub optimal at first level to my view...like the Winter Witches Ice Storm for instance.

 

[Berandor]

While the Unfettered has more skills, most of those skills go into the mobility skills, since they need them to swashbuckle. Unfortunately, mobility skills aren't very good. Tumble is weak and there is no spring attack. And magic can skill easily override those skills.

The Oathsworn seems weak as well. I'd change it to use the 3.5 flurry progression instead of the 3.0 flurry of misses iterative attack rate.

Tumble is weak? Wow. And of course the Unfettered takes movement skills or swashbuckling skills (like Bluff, for example). That's what I said.
The Warmain also has no more access to spells than the Unfettered has, btw. Also, casters must still use a spell slot to do something that the Unfeterred can do all day. So if you want someone to climb this wall, jump the pit, tumble past the guards and use the lever to open the drawbridge, then fight off the guards until the full group has arrived, you probably won't choose either Warmain nor Magister (unless he just lesser telekinesis's his way out of that), but the Unfettered, who will promptly swing down the chandelier to join you on the floor.


Yeah, I like that class. It's been written for me.

 

[Storminator]

Tumble is weak?

Wow. Is the sky a color other than blue in your world also? Because clearly we are not playing the same game, if you think tumble is weak.

In AU, Tumble is an opposed roll. That seriously reduces its usefulness.

I also think the Warmain is a little too good. It can seriously outfight the fighter. If your game is straight AU, of course, that won't matter.

PS

 

[Staffan]

I have my doubts about the whole all poor saves for mageblades thing.

They don't have all poor saves. They have all average saves. In AU, some classes have "average" saves that start at +0 and top out at +9 rather than the +2 to +12 good saves get or the +0 to +6 bad saves get.

 

[Mistwell]

In AU, Tumble is an opposed roll. That seriously reduces its usefulness.

I also think the Warmain is a little too good. It can seriously outfight the fighter. If your game is straight AU, of course, that won't matter.

PS

I wouldn't say it seriously reduces its usefulness.

It is a LOT easier to increase your tumble bonus than it is to increase your attack bonus. You can start with a +4 for ranks, and get another every level. A single first level spell (Canny Effort (H)) will increase it by +10. A single feat will let you take 10 on its use during combat (skill mastery). Affinity with skill will give you +4, Skill focus a +3, and Skill Application a +2. 5 Ranks in jump gives you a +2 synergy bonus.

Not to mention 5 ranks in tumble gives you a +2 synergy bonus to Jump and Balance, and tumble can be used to treat a fall as 10 feet shorter than it really is, and you can use it just like the perform skill for entertainmentm, and you can use it to tumble past or through a space occupied by an attacker EVEN IF YOU FAIL THE TUMBLE CHECK (you just just risk an attack of opportunity - and that's what mobility is for).

Tumble still rocks as a skill.

 

[Storminator]

I wouldn't say it seriously reduces its usefulness.

It is a LOT easier to increase your tumble bonus than it is to increase your attack bonus. You can start with a +4 for ranks, and get another every level. A single first level spell (Canny Effort (H)) will increase it by +10. A single feat will let you take 10 on its use during combat (skill mastery). Affinity with skill will give you +4, Skill focus a +3, and Skill Application a +2. 5 Ranks in jump gives you a +2 synergy bonus.

Not to mention 5 ranks in tumble gives you a +2 synergy bonus to Jump and Balance, and tumble can be used to treat a fall as 10 feet shorter than it really is, and you can use it just like the perform skill for entertainmentm, and you can use it to tumble past or through a space occupied by an attacker EVEN IF YOU FAIL THE TUMBLE CHECK (you just just risk an attack of opportunity - and that's what mobility is for).

Tumble still rocks as a skill.

Oh sure, it's not useless.

But the opposed roll is a LOT harder to make than a 3e check. It's pretty reasonable to have a +8 attack at 2nd level, vs +10 or +11 tumble. And if you start dumping a bunch of feats and spells into it, sure, you get pretty good. But we saw some guys in playtesting get lit up when the DC hit 34 at 10th level.

Another issue in AU is that there is a serious dearth of sneak attack. Nothing in AU compares to a rogue, so the need for tumble is greatly reduced.

PS

 

[Mistwell]

Oh sure, it's not useless.

But the opposed roll is a LOT harder to make than a 3e check. It's pretty reasonable to have a +8 attack at 2nd level, vs +10 or +11 tumble. And if you start dumping a bunch of feats and spells into it, sure, you get pretty good. But we saw some guys in playtesting get lit up when the DC hit 34 at 10th level.

Another issue in AU is that there is a serious dearth of sneak attack. Nothing in AU compares to a rogue, so the need for tumble is greatly reduced.

PS

And yet the Assassin is an approved AU prestige class that gets sneak attack every other level...and first strike is there as a feat that can be taken up to 3 times, in addition to the Akashic and Unfettered getting sneak attack every 4 levels, and several feats that kick in for a sneak attack that do things like drain 1 point of strength (temp damage) with each sneak attack or first strike hit.

 

[Negative Zero]

... in addition, who says that sneak attack is the only reason to tumble? flanking already has its own benefits. in addition, maneuverability is often its own benfit as well!

~NegZ

<EDIT>
while i'm at it ...

I was considering picking up the ... improved leadership feat...

what feat is this? somehow i can't seem to find it in the AU book.

 

[Hammerhead]

First Strike is weak, compared to sneak attack. And that Str drain one, yeah, it's called Crippling Strike and its in third edition as a rogue ability.

If you spend all your skills and feats on tumble, that's a pretty big waste. And still, for example, the 5th level Warmain in my game attacked at +12 with their weapon, allowing them to hit tumblers relatively often.

The thing is that while the Warmain doesn't get access to spells, just like the Unfettered, AU is a TEAM GAME. A Warmain who's flying, for instance, gains a much larger benefit than an Unfettered. Flying is generally required by higher levels; the exact level varies (at least in my experience with multiple high level games).

Yeah, sure, the Unfettered goes and disables the drawbridge for that adventure. Then, the Warmain and the Magister wreak unholy havoc on every guard in the castle for the next three hours of game time, cleaving and sorcerous blasting everyone in their way while you chip in for 1d6 + 1 points of damage.