Impressions of the classes so far

[Hammerhead]

... in addition, who says that sneak attack is the only reason to tumble? flanking already has its own benefits. in addition, maneuverability is often its own benfit as well!

~NegZ

Flanking does provide benefits, but generally a +2 bonus to hit isn't worth the possibility of an extra attack of opportunity headed your way. And often moving to flank means that you lose a full attack, or the option for rapid striking or attacking with both hands.

 

[Negative Zero]

if the point of Hammerhead's post(s) is to illustrate that the Warmain and the Unfettered fill defferent roles, then i say: duh. however, the implication seems to be; "if you don't do massive damage then you're useless." certainly, depending on what tyoes of games you play in, this maybe the case. but it most deffinitely isn't true for eveyone.

~NegZ

 

[Negative Zero]

... generally a +2 bonus to hit isn't worth the possibility of an extra attack of opportunity headed your way. ...

it is if doing so allows your allies to do better/more damage (say by hitting more often or allowing for more effective power attacks). who was it that commented that this was a team game?

~NegZ

 

[Waylander the Slayer]

The Born Leader, not Improved Leadership feat Neg Z... I think this is a very flavorful feat...

 

[Negative Zero]

ah. that makes more sense.

 

[Hammerhead]

Just because it's a team game doesn't mean you should let an opponent hit you for twenty points just so they can squeeze an extra two off a power attack or whatever. Yes, that is an extreme example, but in general, with AU's modfied Tumble rules tumbling around an enemy, forfeiting your full attack and risking an attack of opportunity generally isn't worth a +2 flanking bonus.

No, just because you don't deal massive damage doesn't mean you're useless. But the Unfettered generally seems to play second fiddle to the other classes in nearly all fights. This was my and my player's experience during my campaign Against the Giants: while the Unfettered frequently danced about, swashbuckling and taunting her enemies, she couldn't match the raw power of the other characters even though my scenarios were frequently designed to give her moments to shine.

 

[Berandor]

Well, my unfettered character is sixth level (Mojh 2/Unfettered 4), but is the best fighter in the group (we don't have a warmain, but we have a mage blade).
He attacks with +10/+9 and does 1w6+8/1w4+4 damage (and his dire scimitar/dire sickle weapon combo is more flavor than power), he's got an AC of 19, parry 21. (and a breatn weapon for 4d6 damage!)
I don't think he's particularly weak, myself.

And still, a warmain should be better at fighting, because it's the only thing he does well.

 

[TiQuinn]

Oh sure, it's not useless.

But the opposed roll is a LOT harder to make than a 3e check. It's pretty reasonable to have a +8 attack at 2nd level, vs +10 or +11 tumble. And if you start dumping a bunch of feats and spells into it, sure, you get pretty good. But we saw some guys in playtesting get lit up when the DC hit 34 at 10th level.

Another issue in AU is that there is a serious dearth of sneak attack. Nothing in AU compares to a rogue, so the need for tumble is greatly reduced.

PS

I like the fact that Tumble is no longer a gimme after 3 or 4 levels. It's still very useful for the mobile-types because flanking is a great tactic, especially at lower levels. As levels progress, sneak attack begins to come into play. It's a little jarring, not having sneak attack right off the bat, but I don't see that as a problem in and of itself. Just different.

 

[Staffan]

The thing is that while the Warmain doesn't get access to spells, just like the Unfettered, AU is a TEAM GAME. A Warmain who's flying, for instance, gains a much larger benefit than an Unfettered. Flying is generally required by higher levels; the exact level varies (at least in my experience with multiple high level games).

Note that movement-enhancing spells are much weaker in AU. There's no direct analogue to Expeditous Retreat, and Flight only lets you fly at 30 ft or your own move, whichever is slower. So you can't use Fly anymore to get around your poor movement abilities the way you can in D&D.

There's a passage in the AU FAQ that says something like "I wanted characters to be fast because they're fast, not because they're using the right spell or item." That's why you get things like a feat to increase movement by 10 ft, another feat that lets you take an extra move action X times per day (replacing Spring Attack), and class abilities that increase movement (Wolf totem warrior).

 

[Hammerhead]

While Flight might not give you a move of 90 (which is still too low, in my opinion), it does give you a significant advantage in maneuverability. THe ability to move in three dimensions, negating Climb, Jump, Balance, etc. is huge benefit.

The Warmain in my group was the fastest, tied with the Unfettered at 40 feet. (Litorian pluses one of the few good ceremonial feats at 1st level for non-spellcasters, Fleet of Foot).

How on earth do you attack at +10/+9 doing 1d6+8/1d4+4? Heh, although your AC in my 5-6th level AU minicampaign would have made you the easiest in the group to hit, so I wouldn't exactly be bragging about that. In my experience, particularily midlevel, AU ACs tend to be higher than D&D ACs.