Improved Initiative is objectively better than Danger Sense

[Stuntman]

But if you get a low roll, say a 1, then II makes that 5. If you have DS and you roll a one then you get another go, 75% chance of beating that 5. So there is a 25% chance you'll not win that tie.

Like everyone says, DS is reduscing the chance of a low roll. II is boosting your low roll, but that's no guarantee it will be high (granted 75% isn't a guarantee, but it's good!).

Roll a ten, and you get a 14, with DS you get a ten and then re roll, 35% chance to win.

Say you now roll a twenty, Woo! You now have a score of 24. Wow, Roll a twenty with DS and you don't win.

As you can see, II relies on you getting a good roll, you have to roll well for it to pay off. Not as well as without it, but still well, i.e rolling a 5 is still as likely as rolling a 10, or ten. Granted you'll never roll a one... DS on the other hand gives you consistently better rolls, regardless of the first one, a 20 is 4 times more likely than a 5. And with DS a roll of 5 or less is 6.25% likely, which is negligible.

The results I provides takes into account all of this. The way I did the calculation, I first assumed that both you and your opponent has the same initiative modifier. If the opponent rolled a 1, what's the chance you win initiative. If the opponent rolled a 2, what's the chance you win. I did this all the way to 20. The calculations pretty much emulated every possible combination of initiative rolls between you with each feat and your opponent. The results show that Improved Initiative has a slight edge over Danger Sense.

 

[Ferret]

I think I'd still rather have DS, it's more assurance for me. Though I'd probably take both, if I wanted one!

 

[Saeviomagy]

Effectively danger sense is a +3 untyped bonus to initiative, with the added effect of reducing the deviation of your initiative results.

 

[Nifft]

One other thing occurs to me: there are a bunch of feats out there which give a +2 feat bonus to Initiative checks, which won't stack with II but will stack with DS.

So if you want Quick Draw, Martial Alacrity, Thirst for Battle, Stalking Panther Form, etc., then you probably don't want II, but you may very well want DS.

Cheers, -- N

 

[tiornys]

The results I provides takes into account all of this. The way I did the calculation, I first assumed that both you and your opponent has the same initiative modifier. If the opponent rolled a 1, what's the chance you win initiative. If the opponent rolled a 2, what's the chance you win. I did this all the way to 20. The calculations pretty much emulated every possible combination of initiative rolls between you with each feat and your opponent. The results show that Improved Initiative has a slight edge over Danger Sense.

As noted above, you're quite right that II is better than Danger Sense when you expect the opposition to have the same initiative modifier. However, if you expect that you already have a better initiative modifier than your opponents, Danger Sense becomes superior as it does a better job of preventing an abnormally low roll.

To reiterate the pithy summary made by other posters, Improved Initiative is better at helping you get ahead, whereas Danger Sense is better at helping you stay ahead.

t~

 

[Ferret]

As noted above, you're quite right that II is better than Danger Sense when you expect the opposition to have the same initiative modifier. However, if you expect that you already have a better initiative modifier than your opponents, Danger Sense becomes superior as it does a better job of preventing an abnormally low roll.

To reiterate the pithy summary made by other posters, Improved Initiative is better at helping you get ahead, whereas Danger Sense is better at helping you stay ahead.

t~

Indeed, the shifty stabby stabby rogue takes DS as he will have a high dex and will likely go first, but wants to make sure. the fighter who wants a boost takes II, as he may have a very poor dexterity, and needs the boost.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Indeed, the shifty stabby stabby rogue takes DS as he will have a high dex and will likely go first, but wants to make sure. the fighter who wants a boost takes II, as he may have a very poor dexterity, and needs the boost.

No, the shifty stabby rogue takes both. Or takes one of the other feat bonuses to initiative, plus DS.

 

[tiornys]

No, the shifty stabby rogue takes both. Or takes one of the other feat bonuses to initiative, plus DS.

While this is generally true, if his build is such that he doesn't take an initiative boosting feat until paragon, he takes DS first. And, if he can only fit in one initiative feat for some bizarre reason, it's DS.

t~

 

[KarinsDad]

One thing I dislike about the entire initiative setup is that many monsters in 4E have high dexes and the majority of monsters also have either a +2 or +4 bonus to initiative as well.

What this means is that except for a few PC concepts (such as the high Dex Rogue), initiative order (even at lower levels) often tends to be:

Many of the monsters
A mixture of some monsters and some PCs (maybe)
Many of the PCs

And this gets considerably worse as the levels get higher since most players do not bump up Dex.

Sure, the non-Rogue-like players can take Improved Initiative and Danger Sense in order to keep up, but it's annoying that they have to take one and possibly two feats, merely to maintain the status quo.

 

[Ferret]

No, the shifty stabby rogue takes both. Or takes one of the other feat bonuses to initiative, plus DS.

Sorry, if he only takes one...as this was a straight up comparison.