Improved Rapid Shot feat

[two]

From CW, removes the -2 from RS, low PR's, easy to get, downside?

Fighter with Rapid Shot+Improved Rapid = 1 free attack during a full attack, equivalent to a +3 weapon enhancement bonus (Speed), but better since they are feats and can't be removed (as stack with a weapon of Speed if you want to get sick about it). Of course, you do have to use up precious feats for this, but not money.

I'm thinking this is getting to be near or at the upper reaches of feat-power.

Burn 2 feats for the equivalent of a Weapon of Speed?

Fighter 1: +1 bow of speed (32K) and 2 free feats to spend, +1 attack.
Fighter 2: +4 bow (32K) and 2 feats used, +1 attack, +3 to hit, +3 damage.

I won't even go to the:

Fighter 2: +1 bow of speed (32K) and 2 feats used, +2 attacks, or
Fighter 2: +1 bow and 2 feats used, spend 32K on other equipment, +1 attack. (note that this other gold spend could be on items that grant feats).

When you are getting 3-4-5-6 bow shots a round, and have a -2 penalty removed from them all, the increase in per-round damage is very significant.

Am I over-reacting?

 

[Crothian]

No, when the feat was first presented in Dragon a few years back, many people thought it was a very powerful feat. I don't think that has changed.

 

[two]

Ah, good to know

Glad I'm not smoking some of Nor. Cali's finest, sticky and brown and all that.

Seemed a little whack; however, it's rather subtle. It's not like power attack, where BOOM you get an additional 12 points of damage on an attack. It's hard to spot a hit that would not have been a hit if the -2 had been applied. If you get my drift? My feeling is, some GM's might not think it's that big a deal (what's -2 here or there?), while the numbers indicate different.

That said, I've not done the math. My gut feeling is, the feat in the hands of a 10th level dedicated archer is worth an extra hit every 2 round or so, thus worth about 15 points of damage every other round, or 7 a round. More for heavier hitters, less for less. Ramps up wonderfully, of course.

 

[Crothian]

Basically it's a feat that gives +2 to hit, since it negates the -2 penalty. It makes it so Rapid Shot is a no brainer, it's always going to be used in a full round attack.

 

[LordAO]

Yeah I don't like this feat either. It makes it so that there is no reason not to use Rapid Shot. You might as well call it the "I always get an extra attack at my highest attack bonus feat." To me, it is as bad as an "Improved Power Attack" feat that makes you always get the damage bonus without the attack penalty.

I know I remember seeing a version that lets you make two extra attacks at you highest attack bonus, but all attacks get a -4 penalty.

I like that alot better. And next time I DM, that will be how I rule it.

 

[Korak]

In my opinion, this feat is hardly overpowered. I can run some hard numbers later when I'm at home, but in my experience playing with melee builds in 3.5 and plugging them into my spreadsheets for avg damage; archery always comes in behind 2-handers for raw output. A capped str bonus to damage, no power attack, and the removal of bow and arrow enchantment stacking puts ranged attacks at a significant penalty relative to two handed weapons. This gets exaggerated when facing opponents with DR, or worse yet, with deflects arrows which now automatically removes the first hit per round. Give the archers their extra attack for 2 feats... they'll need it.

 

[The Souljourner]

I think you're way overreacting. When I was using an archer with Rapid Shot, I always used it in a full attack anyway. It's been proven that the only time you don't want to use Rapid Shot is when you need an 18 or 19 to hit without it. That should be pretty rare.

So what we're talking about is a feat that is the third in a chain which gives you +2 to hit while full attacking. What you're saying is equivalent to "But the fighter will never attack without using Greater Weapon Focus!" Why is that a surprise? That's the point!

With all the other feats available with ranged weapons, I don't think this one will be a no brainer. In order to really take advantage of this feat, you have to spend a total of 4 feats on ranged combat - precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot, improved rapid shot. That's a heck of a lot of investment to be able to get one extra attack with a ranged weapon, and you haven't even taken weapon focus yet.

Heck, compare it to plain old Precise Shot. That's negating a -4 penalty... twice the benefit, and it only has one prerequisite.

So... I really don't see the problem.

-The Souljourner

 

[Eltern]

It's like Flurry of Blows

Anyone got a problem with -that-?

Eltern

 

[LordAO]

I think you're way overreacting. When I was using an archer with Rapid Shot, I always used it in a full attack anyway. It's been proven that the only time you don't want to use Rapid Shot is when you need an 18 or 19 to hit without it. That should be pretty rare.

So what we're talking about is a feat that is the third in a chain which gives you +2 to hit while full attacking. What you're saying is equivalent to "But the fighter will never attack without using Greater Weapon Focus!" Why is that a surprise? That's the point!

Weapon focus is a feat that's meant to apply all the time (when using that weapon, obviously). And since it is something that applies almost all the time, the bonus it gives is quite small. Rapid Shot was clearly designed with a choice in mind. Like Power Attack, it should not always be used. It's meant to be a strategic feat, not a "no-brainer."

And greater Weapon Focus is an Epic Feat, BTW. This feat is basically the same thing as Greater Weapon Focus (a +2 to attacks), and it's a non-epic feat. Something to think about.

With all the other feats available with ranged weapons, I don't think this one will be a no brainer. In order to really take advantage of this feat, you have to spend a total of 4 feats on ranged combat - precise shot, point blank shot, rapid shot, improved rapid shot. That's a heck of a lot of investment to be able to get one extra attack with a ranged weapon, and you haven't even taken weapon focus yet.

Yes that's true. But archery also has alot of innate advantages over melee that should not be ignored. The fact that it has disadvantages is quite sensible. The fact that you can eliminate those disadvantages with a small number of feat purchases is quite generous, IMHO.

I don't understand all of the whining over archery being picked on. As both a player and a DM I can tell you that I have seen time and time again the enormous benefits it offers. Even with the new 3.5 rules archers in our game have done easily as well as melee. There are benefits and drawbacks to both, of course. And that's how it should be.

Heck, compare it to plain old Precise Shot. That's negating a -4 penalty... twice the benefit, and it only has one prerequisite.

Precise Shot only matters in a specific situation (while firing into a melee). That doesn't happen all the time (or even most of the time). And you won't be getting a +4 to hit on every attack just because you have that feat. It is merely cancelling a penalty that occasionaly comes into play.

Please don't get the impression that I am one of those archery haters. I'm not. God, I love archery. I simply think that, in my honest, humble opinion, the Improved Rapid Shot feat is a little bit too powerful as written. But it's no biggie. I won't lose any sleep over it.

 

[jaults]

In 3.5, Greater Weapon Focus is +1 to attack with selected weapon, and is not epic.

Jason