Improved Rapid Shot feat

[LordAO]

In 3.5, Greater Weapon Focus is +1 to attack with selected weapon, and is not epic.

Jason

Oops. You're right. Sorry, I'm still stuck in the limbo somewhere between 3.0 and 3.5 edition.

 

[The Souljourner]

Weapon focus is a feat that's meant to apply all the time (when using that weapon, obviously). And since it is something that applies almost all the time, the bonus it gives is quite small. Rapid Shot was clearly designed with a choice in mind. Like Power Attack, it should not always be used. It's meant to be a strategic feat, not a "no-brainer."

Improved Rapid shot is meant to apply all the time (at least when you're using rapid shot). And since it is something that applies almost all the time, the bonus it gives is quite small, though not as small as weapon focus, since it requires two other feats as prerequisites, plus, it is only negating a penalty instead of giving an actual bonus.

The fact that you can eliminate those disadvantages with a small number of feat purchases is quite generous, IMHO.

Improved Precise shot requires Dex 19, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +11, which you need to negate the cover penalty you almost always get when using a ranged weapon to shoot past your allies into combat, which in my experience is about 90% of the time. I wouldn't call that a small number of feat purchases nor an easy feat chain to complete. That's what you need to truly eliminate the disadvantages of using a bow, though that still doesn't give you the ability to threaten squares with it, nor does it stop you from provoking attacks of opportunity when you use it.

Precise Shot only matters in a specific situation (while firing into a melee). That doesn't happen all the time (or even most of the time).

Do you not have melee fighters in your groups? Do you never fight indoors? Firing into melee is like 90% of what I've seen in 3.0 and 3.5. I should know, I played an Order of the Bow Initiate for a year from level 1 to level 10.

And you won't be getting a +4 to hit on every attack just because you have that feat. It is merely cancelling a penalty that occasionaly comes into play.

You won't be getting +2 to hit on every attack just because you have Improved Precise Shot. It is merely cancelling a penalty that comes into play about as often as firing into melee. There have been plenty of times when I've needed to move and shoot, or when I had to ready an attack, etc etc etc, where I couldn't use rapid shot. Yes, it makes using the rapid shot ability during a full attack a no brainer, but since it was a no brainer 95% of the time before you spent an extra feat on it, I don't think it's a big deal to throw the math out of the equation and just say "go ahead and use it all the time".

-The Souljourner

 

[LordAO]

Do you not have melee fighters in your groups? Do you never fight indoors? Firing into melee is like 90% of what I've seen in 3.0 and 3.5. I should know, I played an Order of the Bow Initiate for a year from level 1 to level 10.

No need to be condescedning. Just because we have a difference in opinion doesn't mean I don't know what the hell I'm talking about! Yes, of course we've had melee fighters in our groups. And plenty of archers too. I've played an Arcane Archer for some time before, before there was such a thing as Improved Precise Shot or Greater Rapid Shot, so I know very well what advantages/disadvantages archers have, before that even had all the new toys of the 3.5 edition.

And no, in my experience Precise Shot isn't neded 90% of the time. Of course, I also do alot of sniping as an archer, so that makes a considerable difference. I spent much of my time as an archer not shooting the enemies that were already meeting their doom with our melee characters, but rather using my range to pick off distant threats (spellcasters, enemy archers, etc) and new threats as they emerged. Sure, I had and used Precise Shot, and it was a very nice pick, but it hardly came into play 90% of the time. Just a difference in playing style I guess.

And so rapid Shot gets rid of the -4 penalty? Thats a totally different thing than giving a bonus. It's not making you more powerful, it's simply making you even. That is a unique penalty of ranged attacks that melee never has to deal with. It simply gets rid of it. An Archer with Precise Shot is evening the score with a melee character, an Archer with Rapid Shot is gaining a considerable advantage over him. You are comparing apples and oranges here. They are two totally different things.

Rapid Shot itself is a huge advantage of archery. Melee characters don't get a feat that lets them make extra attacks like that. And in real life one can swing a sword much more rapidly than an archer can shoot a bow. Of course I realize this isn't real life, but IMHO it's a huge blessing that Archers can even get Rapid Shot to begin with. Getting it for "free" is overkill, IMO. Maybe it isn't that big of a deal. it takes quite a few feats to get, as you said, and there are always plenty of other feats to choose from. Maybe I would be happier if there were a "Rapid Swing" for melee. In either case I was simply contributing my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree with it.

 

[green slime]

Improved Rapid Shot is too good, IMO.

 

[James McMurray]

Melee characters don't get a feat that lets them make extra attacks like that

Unless you count two-weapon fighting, cleave, greater two-weapon fighting, great cleave, and the like.

 

[two]

obvious

Unless you count two-weapon fighting, cleave, greater two-weapon fighting, great cleave, and the like.

Just to state the extremely obvious:

PC's use cleave 5% of the time. Great cleave 5% of the time. 2-weapon fighting 40% of the time (maybe, as you need to be next to the bad guy and then do a full attack). Ditto Greater 2-weapon fighting.

PC's use Rapid Shot 90% of the time -- basically, every round after the initial round of "getting out the bow and moving behind a tank or two."

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Rapid Shot and Improved Rapid Shot are also far more limited than the Two-Weapon Fighting chain.

Personally, I'd take a second extra shot with -4 penalties over removing the penalty from Rapid Shot every time, so I think the feat works better as written.

 

[jgsugden]

The power of this feat is very much a factor of campaign design. It can not be acurately analyzed without delving into how the DM designs encounters.

Why?

Because the difference in value between +24/+24/+19/+14 and +26/+26/+21/+16 depends upon the AC of your foes, your expected damage, etc ... If all your foes have ACs of 16 or less, there isn't really a difference between the two situations. If it won't really have an effect, it can't be overpowered. If your foes have ACs in the low 30s, the difference in expected damage is going to be significant. Increasing average damage per round from 40 points to 50 points would be a big deal.

As a result, the only way that you can tell if this feat is balanced in your game is to look at a few sample combats and try it out. Pay attention ot the math behind the scenes - look at the expected results, not just the average results. Pay attention to when the feat actually made a difference. Once you get a feel for the situation, you'll be able to decide whether it is balanced in your game.

 

[feydras]

No ones mentioned that Improved Rapid Shot has Many Shot as a prerequisite. I don't have my CWH book with me but i am 95% sure this is true as it is the thing that is preventing me from choosing the feat. I hate Many Shot and believe it is totatally worthless.

So, if you are an archer and got the Many Shot feat for free then the ability to buy Improved Rapid Shot is a consilation prize. If you are not a ranger, then add that up as yet another prerequisite to buy. Yes, IRS is great, but worth burning all those feats? Tough choice, especially with so many neat new archery feats in the Complete Warrior's Handbook.

Am i missing something, or am i the only person who noticed the Many Shot prerequisite?

- feydras

 

[DrSpunj]

Am i missing something, or am i the only person who noticed the Many Shot prerequisite?

Nope, you've got it right, feydras. I was just going to post a similar thread and am glad I Searched first. Here's the Complete Warrior version:

Improved Rapid Shot [General]
You are an expert at firing weapons with exceptional speed.
Prerequisites: Manyshot, Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot. (Because of the prereqs for those it should also technically list Dex 17 and BAB +6 as well.)
Benefit: When using the Rapid Shot feat, you may ignore the -2 penalty on all your ranged attack rolls.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Rapid Shot as one of his fighter bonus feats.

And I think Eltern also brought up a good point: Rapid Shot with Improved Rapid Shot is for Archery what the 3.5 Flurry of Blows has become for Monks. Now, from a strictly mechanical comparison it's not identical as it's possible to get IRS at 6th level while a Monk's FoB penalty doesn't disappear until 9th, but it's a pretty good analogy otherwise, IMO. If no one has problems with a 9th level Monk, would they feel better about IRS with a Prereq of BAB +9?

Any math heads wanna step in here and give us a lot of number crunching? Lots of people (including SKR) were had some pretty intense analyses when comparing RS/IRS vs 2HF & 2WF for 3.0.

Thanks.

DrSpunj