Improved Unarmed combat questions

[dcollins]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Improved Unarmed combat questions

Oh yes, if you're armed you actually threaten an area, if you're unarmed you don't.

That is not anywhere in the printed rules, errata, or FAQ.

Since the thread from 5/23 was erased, I will again summarize the argument:

- Yes, the Sage ruled in personal email that unarmed characters do not threaten an area, and cannot make AOO's. Such a ruling is in direct contradiction to the note on PH p. 128: "Disarm+ Grapple+ Trip an opponent+... + These attack forms substitute... even as an attack of opportunity."

- Aggemam's position is that the rules under the heading "Unarmed Attacks" on PH p. 140 (that they provoke AOO's) apply to all unarmed attack forms, and that by implication that means they do not threaten an area. I observe that neither is the implication warranted, nor is the section anything other than specific to "unarmed strikes", since it uses only the following language: "Striking for damage with punches... unarmed strike damage... an unarmed strike from a Medium-size character does 1d3 points of damage... unarmed strikes count as light weapons... you can specify that your unarmed strike will deal normal damage..."

Conclusion: Without contradicting the printed core rules, unarmed characters must normally threaten an area around themselves in all circumstances.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Improved Unarmed combat questions

Conclusion: Without contradicting the printed core rules, unarmed characters must normally threaten an area around themselves in all circumstances.

Without going into details (I can if you wnat me to) this is wrong.

From the SRD

Threatened Area

A character threatens the area into which it can make a melee attack, even when it is not a character's action.

A 'melee attack' is not the same as an unarmed attack by definition. See PHB, page 123.

 

[Ranger REG]

PAGE REFERENCE:

Player's Handbook (Second Printing November 2000), page 39, column 2, paragraph 5 (just above Table 3-11: Small Monk Damage and Speed)...

Usually, monk's unarmed strikes deal normal damage, but she can choose to deal subdual damage instead with no penalty to her attack roll. She has the same choice to deal normal or subdual damage while grappling (see Grappling, page 137).

This paragraph re-iterate the two options a monk has with regards to inflicting damage type with his unarmed attack, whether he is using unarmed strikes or while grappling.

-----

By Definition...

Player's Handbook (Second Printing November 2000), page 279, column 2

melee attack: A physical attack suitable for close combat.

AND...

Page 282, column 2

unarmed attack: A melee attack with no weapon in hand.

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: PAGE REFERENCE:

This paragraph re-iterate the two options a monk has with regards to inflicting damage type with his unarmed attack, whether he is using unarmed strikes or while grappling.

Oh yeah, 2nd printing is worded differently than 1st printing.

Was is the point of the rest of your post?

 

[dcollins]

His point is that an "unarmed attack" is defined to be a type of "melee attack".

That is, your observation of a separate entry for "unarmed attacks" on p. 122-123. Is not persuasive. So too do "charge" and "full attack" have their own entries on p. 122, but they still count as "melee attacks" under the rules.

The concrete statement on p. 128 that a variety of unarmed attacks can be used as AOO's is far more compelling.

 

[AGGEMAM]

His point is that an "unarmed attack" is defined to be a type of "melee attack".

No, that is not the defining but the explanetory text.

That is, your observation of a separate entry for "unarmed attacks" on p. 122-123. Is not persuasive. So too do "charge" and "full attack" have their own entries on p. 122, but they still count as "melee attacks" under the rules.

A charge is a melee attack? No, you got that wrong.

A Charge is a special standard action, that ends with a melee attack.

A Full-Attack action is several attacks, be it melee, ranged or unarmed.

The Sage ruled on this, go by it! It's in the FAQ isn't it?

The ruling is there to prevent the AoO provoking AoO loop.

 

[dcollins]

The Sage ruled on this, go by it! It's in the FAQ isn't it?

Incorrect. As I pointed out earlier in this thread (see 5/26 post above), this ruling is not in the FAQ -- to date it's been personal email only.

Even if it were, I'm willing to give the Sage quite a bit of authority... but logical contradictions with explicitly-stated Core Rules are not in that category.

 

[Taloras]

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt it say that you can provoke an attack of opportunity from anyone who is armed and threatening the area? If so, the Improved Unarmed Attack makes you considered "armed" even when not carrying a weapon. And a monk is always considered armed. therefore, id say (and the rest of my group agreed when this came up) that someone with Improved Unarmed Attack can make AoAs.

 

[AGGEMAM]

If you have the Improved Unarmed Strike feat or are otherwise considered armed, you are not making unarmed attacks, because you are armed, you instead consider your 'armed unarmed attacks' as melee attack, and therefore you are able to make AoOs.

 

[Caliban]

Correct me if im wrong, but doesnt it say that you can provoke an attack of opportunity from anyone who is armed and threatening the area? If so, the Improved Unarmed Attack makes you considered "armed" even when not carrying a weapon. And a monk is always considered armed. therefore, id say (and the rest of my group agreed when this came up) that someone with Improved Unarmed Attack can make AoAs.

Improved Unarmed Strike has no effect on whether or not you can make an AoO on someone who is armed. It simply stops you from provoking an AoO when you attack someone who is wielding a weapon, and allows you to make an AoO on someone who makes an unarmed attack against you.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that you have to be "armed" to make an AoO.

You can make an AoO into any area you threaten. (PHB, page 122)
You threaten any area you can make a melee attack into. (PHB, page 122)
An Unarmed Attack is a melee attack. (PHB, page 282)


Therefore you threaten an the area around you with your Unarmed Attack and can make an AoO, regardless of whether or not you have Improved Unarmed Strike or not.