Improved Unarmed Strike and Weapon Finesse

[CalrinAlshaw]

I would make a Pin, Hold, and Break Another's Pin actions all strength based only. However, I would make the initial touch attack allow dex with weapon finesse, and escapes all allow dexterity, if the player chooses. To me, that sound realistic of wrestling.

Calrin

 

[AGGEMAM]

But Weapon finesse (unarmed strike) should come into play for the initial melee touch attack, no?

Naturally!

 

[Metallian]

I did not think that "Grapple" counted an independent weapon. Do you know where I can find the rules basis for this? I always assumed grappling used you "Unarmed" weapon.weapon.

Well, it's somethign I extrapolated from the following feats:

WEAPON FOCUS [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

WEAPON SPECIALIZATION [GENERAL]
Choose one type of weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple as your weapon for purposes of this feat. You deal extra damage when using this weapon.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, Weapon Focus with selected weapon, fighter level 4th.
Benefit: You gain a +2 bonus on all damage rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
A fighter may select Weapon Specialization as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Note that Unarmed Strike and Grapple constitute different instances of the feats...you apparently can't take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and apply it to Grappling (as my character had been doing as a house rule in our 3.0 game). It stands to reason that they are different "weapons." I haven't found anything in the Grappling rules to contradict this, either.

Theoretically, if Grappling was considered a "light weapon," it might make sense to allow Weapon Finesse. However, it doesn't "feel" right to me an I don't think Wizards intended it. More likely they'd make it a separate feat, "Agile Wrestling" or something like that.

The Metallian

 

[Camarath]

Note that Unarmed Strike and Grapple constitute different instances of the feats...you apparently can't take Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike) and apply it to Grappling (as my character had been doing as a house rule in our 3.0 game). It stands to reason that they are different "weapons." I haven't found anything in the Grappling rules to contradict this, either.

Theoretically, if Grappling was considered a "light weapon," it might make sense to allow Weapon Finesse. However, it doesn't "feel" right to me an I don't think Wizards intended it. More likely they'd make it a separate feat, "Agile Wrestling" or something like that.

The Metallian

Ah sorry, I had not noticed that. Well, I think it would be odd (to me at least) if Grappling did not count as a natural weapon. Since all "Natural weapons are always considered light weapons." that would allow you to use Weapon finesse with a Grapple. But I could be wrong the rules are not clear about what kind of “weapon” grappling is or if it is only considered a weapon for the purposes of Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and similar feats.

 

[iwatt]

I was pretty sure about weponf finesse and Unarmed strike working (but without my books I though I'd use the same post at once ).

About grapple and Weapon Finesse, as much as I'd like to be able to apply my Dex to my grapple check (and the real reason behind my post ), I have mixedf feelings. As other have posted, an argument can be made for dex to escape attenpts (except against pins).
I do believe that high dex creatures should be able to leave grapples just as easily as strong ones, but the game mechanics for this already exists: escape artist. But when causing damage during a hold, I can see that a character who has focused his attacks through quick and agile punches and kicks (taken weapon finesse+IUS) should benefit from his training.

I'm very good at just deciding to change rules on the fly, and I'm not a blind servant to "game-balance" either. But from the answers in this thread, I think that weapon finesse, in the spirit of the rules, shouldn't be mixed with grapple, barring a feat as Metallian proposed. My Rogue9/Mnk1 will still take Improved grapple over Stunning fist though (+4 to defensive grapples is still quite useful).