D&D 5E Improving Two-Weapon Fighting

[Mr. Spade]

Significantly better than defense style even if used only for +AC. Seems a little problematic, no?

I would possibly adjust it to ac vs melee, or restrict it from heavy armor use, but remember that ac bonus comes at the expense of damage output, thus it would likely be used at best 50% of the time. Which means you're focus is on deflecting incoming blows as opposed to a sword and board fighter who gets a +2 for both damage and ac at all times . This is either/or not both. Which feels inline with current UA class options they are presenting that have plenty of either/or options.

 

[Bardic Dave]

...remember that ac bonus comes at the expense of damage output...

The +1 AC from defense style also comes at the expense of damage output because you chose defense style instead of something else. Characterizing added flexibility as a disadvantage isn't a very convincing argument.

 

[Mr. Spade]

The +1 AC from defense style also comes at the expense of damage output because you chose defense style instead of something else. Characterizing added flexibility as a disadvantage isn't a very convincing argument.

Honestly defensive style is very weak, as well. That, to me, should scale with type of armor. (Ie. Medium or heavy armor only +1 for medium +2 for heavy.)

To be fair I don't believe many people take this unless it is a second fighting style chosen because you have the option and nothing else seems feasible.

Also, we are discussing two weapon fighting as it compares to other fighting styles. Defensive style is not comparable to any offensive style.

 

[Bardic Dave]

Honestly defensive style is very weak...

I disagree. I think it's a reasonable choice for a character that isn't focussed on DPR. It's one of the only ways to get a boost to your AC with almost no strings attached. It might be less immediately appealing than the damage boosting styles, but it has its niche. I've seen a few people take it over the years and no one has expressed regret at their choice. The impact of +1 AC can easily dwarf the impact of +2 damage, circumstance dependent (e.g. if you're taking multiple attacks per turn from a pack of Kobolds).

 

[Mr. Spade]

I disagree. I think it's a reasonable choice for a character that isn't focussed on DPR. It's one of the only ways to get a boost to your AC with almost no strings attached. It might be less immediately appealing than the damage boosting styles, but it has its niche.

You're absolutely correct. It fits its niche, still seems they could have given a defensive fighter more than just +1 ac. Perhaps defensive and protection should be one style, it is fitting.
However that +1 ac is always there, you don't have to use a bonus action to make yourself more tanky, gwf doesn't have to use a bonus action to reroll his one's and two's, dueling doesn't require it for the +2 to damage either. But two weapon fighters do? By 11+ you have better uses for bonus action usage and your twf style becomes nearly obsolete but every other fighting style gets to keep their bonuses unfettered.

 

[Mr. Spade]

Did the math
GWF using greatsword (2d6=8.33)
S&B using longsword (1d8+2=6.5)
TWF using shortsword (1d6=3.5)

Assuming an ability modifier of +3

GWF
1-4: 8.33+3=11.33
5-10: 11.33×2=22.66
11-19: 11.33×3=33.99
20: 11.33×4= 45.32

S&B
1-4: 6.5+3=9.5
5-10: 9.5×2=19
11-19: 9.5×3=28.5
20: 9.5×4=38

TWF (RAW)
1-4: (3.5+3)=6.5 W/BA: 6.5+(3.5+3)=13
5-8: (6.5)×2=13 W/BA: 13+6.5=19.5
9-10: (6.5)×2=13 W/BA: 13+6.5=19.5
11-16: (6.5)×3=19.5 W/BA: 19.5+6.5=26
17-19: (6.5)×3=19.5 W/BA: 19.5+6.5=26
20: (6.5)×4=26 W/BA: 26+6.5=32.5

TWF (With my proposed change)
1-4: (3.5+3)+1=7.5 W/BA: 7.5+(3.5+3)=14
5-8: (6.5+1)×2=15 W/BA: 15+6.5=21.5
9-10: (6.5+2)×2=17 W/BA: 17+6.5=23.5
11-16: (6.5+2)×3=25.5 W/BA: 25.5+6.5=32
17-19: (6.5+3)×3=28.5 W/BA: 28.5+6.5=35
20: (6.5+3)×4=38 W/BA: 38+6.5=44.5

Now let's remember that twf will not be using their BA for their offhand attack every round, and may be utilizing their bonus for ac on occasion. So at 20 using a different BA (6.5) and fighting defensively (3×4=12) that will be 18.5 less damage leaving 26 damage for those rounds.

This is all without extra feats.

 

[FrogReaver]

Did the math
GWF using greatsword (2d6=8.33)
S&B using longsword (1d8+2=6.5)
TWF using shortsword (1d6=3.5)

Assuming an ability modifier of +3

GWF
1-4: 8.33+3=11.33
5-10: 11.33×2=22.66
11-19: 11.33×3=33.99
20: 11.33×4= 45.32

S&B
1-4: 6.5+3=9.5
5-10: 9.5×2=19
11-19: 9.5×3=28.5
20: 9.5×4=38

TWF
1-4: (3.5+3)+1=7.5 W/BA: 7.5+(3.5+3)=14
5-8: (6.5+1)×2=15 W/BA: 15+6.5=21.5
9-10: (6.5+2)×2=17 W/BA: 17+6.5=23.5
11-16: (6.5+2)×3=25.5 W/BA: 25.5+6.5=32
17-19: (6.5+3)×3=28.5 W/BA: 28.5+6.5=35
20: (6.5+3)×4=38 W/BA: 38+6.5=44.5

Now let's remember that twf will not be using their BA for their offhand attack every round, and may be utilizing their bonus for ac on occasion. So at 20 using a different BA (6.5) and fighting defensively (3×4=12) that will be 18.5 less damage leaving 26 damage for those rounds.

I'm goina give ya a chance to explain

where's the (6.5+X) coming from in the TWF section?

 

[Mr. Spade]

I'm goina give ya a chance to explain

where's the (6.5+X) coming from in the TWF section?

The X is 1/2 proficiency bonus rounded down damage bonus I suggested. I will point that out in the post with an edit thank you

 

[Mr. Spade]

H

I'm goina give ya a chance to explain

where's the (6.5+X) coming from in the TWF section?

edited it, even added RAW stats. Hopefully that clears it up for you and others

 

[FrogReaver]

edited it, even added RAW stats. Hopefully that clears it up for you and others

First - what happens when you use your first attack to knock the enemy prone. Does your overall damage increase further?

Second - with feats your damage is still lower.

Third - action surge still greatly favors the gwf.

Also not assuming maxing stat isn’t realistic. That needs included for each