D&D 4E In 4e combat, is an ooze as tall as a human?

[Saeviomagy]

As a DM, I would have had the ooze attack the bat, primarily because doing otherwise is failing to reward smart tactics, without any real reason that they should fail (sure the flavor text says no stairs, but I doubt that any DM would rule that a PC standing on a chair was totally safe from an ooze.

 

[Starglim]

Your DM is making a wussy excuse, as shown by the illustration of the dragonborn fighter and ooze (PHB p. 294) where the latter is clearly reaching at least to the dragonborn's shoulder.

The correct answer was that 4e oozes have an Intelligence score and it's reasonable for the DM to decide either that you are more palatable than a bat, or that the ooze relies on its tremorsense (which detects only you) more than its blindsight (which can see the bat), considering that, for whatever reason, the two coexist in the dungeon and the bat is prepared to fly into the ooze's reach to attack you.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The correct answer was that 4e oozes have an Intelligence score and it's reasonable for the DM to decide either that you are more palatable than a bat, or that the ooze relies on its tremorsense (which detects only you) more than its blindsight (which can see the bat), considering that, for whatever reason, the two coexist in the dungeon and the bat is prepared to fly into the ooze's reach to attack you.

Why not have the ooze and bat readying and delaying and organizing flanks with each other on the character with the lowest AC while we're at it?

 

[DrSpunj]

Most PCes are taller than 5 foot, therefore they take up two vertical squares, while the Ochre only takes up one vertical square since it is 1 foot tall. So I could see a bat flying out of reach of the Ochre but still being within reach of the PCes.

However, by that logic a dwarf or halfling may not be able to reach them either.

Disclaimer: I'm Nail's DM.

This was essentially my thinking exactly. In prepping for this battle I had taken the time to look at the Size table on MM pg 6 because I thought maybe one or more of the PCs might try climbing the cliff face in the room to get away from the ochre jellies and wanted to have some idea about how high a PC might have to climb before they were effectively safe from their attacks.

As a Large (long) creature the ochre jellies have a Reach of 1 space. Given the fluff text under the Ochre Jelly entry about "cannot climb steps or similar surfaces, and often become trapped in low-lying chambers" I imagined them being low to the ground. Sure, they attack nearby spaces with Slams from pseudopods they form temporarily, but they cannot hold those shapes with any strength to actually climb stairs and whatnot.

Putting that together with Nail (that's also the PC's name) the Human Fighter being on average 6 ft tall and the Dragonborn Warlock (avg height 6.5 ft) being the closest PCs to the ooze and also both being targeted by the Shadowhunter Bats, when Nail's Fighter-Stickiness stopped their Flyby Attacks (they were targeting other PCs, not Nail) I mentally had them 3 sqs off the ground attacking these two Medium-size PCs (2 sqs tall) with the Ochre Jelly occupying the ground nearby. With the Ochre Jelly only having a 1 sq Reach, I didn't feel it could feasibly attack the Shadowhunter Bats, they were effectively 1 sq too far above it.

As a DM, I would have had the ooze attack the bat, primarily because doing otherwise is failing to reward smart tactics, without any real reason that they should fail (sure the flavor text says no stairs, but I doubt that any DM would rule that a PC standing on a chair was totally safe from an ooze.

For the chair, not at all, see above. As to the first part, I think Nail, the player, had great tactics, but there was no reason Nail the PC, a level 1 Fighter with a low Intelligence who had never been Underground before or fought creatures of this kind, would believe that pushing it toward the Shadowhunter Bat and then moving himself away would cause the Ochre Jelly to switch targets.

Now, his PC has a high Wisdom and though he's not Trained in Dungeoneering I would allow such in game knowledge to be tactically useful with a successful Monster Knowledge check on his part or one of the other party members, likely a DC 15 since this type of information probably falls under the basic information you'd get from the Ooze type/keywords.

Unfortunately we had a couple player absences and two of the PCs who are trained in Dungeoneering were being cross-covered by players not too familiar with them; and this was only our 3rd session of 4e and no one is really in the habit of making Monster Knowledge checks (though doing so doesn't cost any actions!). I hope that will change with some reminding on my part going forward since it's a great & straightforward way to get some useful information to the players that rewards those PCs with Trained Knowledge skills and/or high Intelligence or Wisdom, and that's A Good Thing (tm)!

BTW, kudos to Nail for making his point in the midst of combat ("I cry foul!" ) quickly, letting me explain my reasoning, and us moving on with my decision all within I think less than 30 seconds. I certainly try to keep things RAW and clarify when I'm going with what I feel is RAI, but I'm glad this type of discussion didn't derail the flow of combat for everyone. Importantly, this was early in the combat and no PCs were really in a life-or-death situation (that was the next combat encounter! )

Thanks

 

[DrSpunj]

Your DM is making a wussy excuse, as shown by the illustration of the dragonborn fighter and ooze (PHB p. 294) where the latter is clearly reaching at least to the dragonborn's shoulder.

<looks at picture> I'm pretty comfortable saying that Dragonborn can reach quite a bit higher than the ooze with that nasty, two-handed sword he's holding, tyvm.

The correct answer was that 4e oozes have an Intelligence score and it's reasonable for the DM to decide either that you are more palatable than a bat, or that the ooze relies on its tremorsense (which detects only you) more than its blindsight (which can see the bat), considering that, for whatever reason, the two coexist in the dungeon and the bat is prepared to fly into the ooze's reach to attack you.

I'm honestly not sure what an Intelligence score of 1 really allows; is that really discussed anywhere? Since there was a Flaming Sphere in this battle I gave it fear of fire (or should that be a given because of its Wisdom of 12?) but I'm not convinced it gives it such a discerning palate.

Now, I did have the tremorsense >>> blindsense argument in the back of my head also but felt it was secondary to the Reach issue as outlined above.

Thanks

 

[Nail]

I mentally had them 3 sqs off the ground attacking these two Medium-size PCs (2 sqs tall) with the Ochre Jelly occupying the ground nearby. With the Ochre Jelly only having a 1 sq Reach, I didn't feel it could feasibly attack the Shadowhunter Bats, they were effectively 1 sq too far above it.

Are you sure medium sized creatures (up-right or not) are 2 squares tall? That means that if Nail (a human fighter) is standing next to a 10 foot tall stone wall, and a goblin is standing on top of that wall, Nail can punch or kick the goblin! (Or even grab him and keep him immobilized.) Nail can effectively kick 15 feet off the ground!

Are you sure that's the case? 'Cause if so, I'm buying a pair of hob-nailed boots.!

I think Nail, the player, had great tactics, but there was no reason Nail the PC, a level 1 Fighter with a low Intelligence who had never been Underground before or fought creatures of this kind, would believe that pushing it toward the Shadowhunter Bat and then moving himself away would cause the Ochre Jelly to switch targets.

Although I appreciate the sentiment, we're not talking about tactics or PC knowledge here. The situation (bat closer to ooze than PC) could happen with or without pseudo-clever PC tactics. In fact, since the shadowhunter bats flew over the oozes to get to the PCs, the Ooze arguably gets an Opportunity Attack on the bat as it crosses overhead.

...unless, of course, the bats were allies of the oozes. I've heard rumors of the dreaded bat-ooze alliance before, but never expected it to be proven true!

BTW, kudos to Nail for making his point in the midst of combat ("I cry foul!" ) quickly, letting me explain my reasoning, and us moving on with my decision all within I think less than 30 seconds.

Thanks...but I think I over-reacted even so. I really-really didn't/don't want to derail the game, and cut into everyone's fun. I'll work harder at keeping my rules-lawyering OOC comments to a minimum.

 

[DrSpunj]

Are you sure medium sized creatures (up-right or not) are 2 squares tall?

Of course I'm not sure, since it's not spelled out in the RAW anywhere, but look at that picture of the Dragonborn and the ooze discussed a couple posts back: a 6.5' tall Dragonborn with a 4' long sword reaching over his head with his long arms should be able to attack and otherwise interact with a goblin standing on a 10' tall stone wall with a minimal (ie. not going to bother rolling) vertical jump (though keep in mind White Dragonborn Can't Jump! ).

Yes, we get into a bunch of screwy cases but that's true keeping all Medium-sized creatures locked into only a 5' tall square. Are you saying they're all hunched over all the time so they don't break that 5' imaginary barrier hanging over their head?

The rules aren't perfect, they're not meant to be, and anytime we compartmentalize something like dimensions into squares and time into rounds there are going to be cases that need further adjudication. That's the DM's job and I think the best any of us can do is try to be fair and consistent. If I rule differently in a similar situation to this one then I want to be called on it because I make plenty of mistakes and certainly don't want those to spoil anyone's fun, including my own!

Although I appreciate the sentiment, we're not talking about tactics or PC knowledge here. The situation (bat closer to ooze than PC) could happen with or without pseudo-clever PC tactics. In fact, since the shadowhunter bats flew over the oozes to get to the PCs, the Ooze arguably gets an Opportunity Attack on the bat as it crosses overhead.

And would only if the ooze threatened the bats, which I don't agree with as outlined above. I think the rules are open to DM interpretation here and even if they were crystal clear in exactly this situation there will be other situations open to different interpretations. It's, for better or worse, the nature of the game (which I have a much better understanding of now that I've DM'd for the last few years!).

Thanks

 

[Nail]

Of course I'm not sure, since it's not spelled out in the RAW anywhere, but look at that picture of the Dragonborn and the ooze discussed a couple posts back: a 6.5' tall Dragonborn with a 4' long sword reaching over his head with his long arms should be able to attack and otherwise interact with a goblin standing on a 10' tall stone wall with a minimal (ie. not going to bother rolling) vertical jump (though keep in mind White Dragonborn Can't Jump! ).

So, just to be clear about this ruling, a dwarf (any medium humanoid) can reach the top of a 14.99 foot wall. Without jumping. Remember, a creature can reach any object in any adjacent square.

Also, a human (medium humanoid) could use an unarmed attack on a creature almost 15 feet above the ground. A 15 foot kick, perhaps (but not a jump kick....one presumes that could go farther up....30 feet?).

Interestingly, this ruling makes getting those things out of the top shelf of a closet much easier. Heck, all closets should be 14.99 feet high! (...rather than the standard 8 feet. I wonder why all our closets are only 8 feet tall? Those carpenters are cheating us! )

 

[DrSpunj]

So, just to be clear about this ruling, a dwarf (any medium humanoid) can reach the top of a 14.99 foot wall. Without jumping. Remember, a creature can reach any object in any adjacent square.

Nope. It's never going to be that easy. I can't find where I said "any medium humanoid" and with good reason, because not all Medium-sized humanoids are exactly the same. Comparing a 6.5" tall Dragonborn with a greatsword to a 4.6" tall Dwarf with a Dagger (or his hob-nailed boot!) isn't going to work. It's all situational, just like I've been saying.

It's not black & white in the RAW and I/we can discuss it here or elsewhere for days without end; there will always be situations that aren't cut & dried where the DM needs to step in and make a ruling.

To bring this back to our combat, just as Milambus stated early on, Dwarves are 1-2 feet shorter than the other Medium-size races, and Halflings shorter yet as Small humanoids. The Shadowhunter Bats could not have attacked Borange (our Dwarf Cleric) and stayed 3 squares up because they only have a 1 square reach, so they would have had to fly down to 2 squares to get to him. Had Nail the Human Fighter nabbed the Shadowhunter Bat just as it was going after Borange a nearby Ochre Jelly could have attacked it and would receive an Opportunity Attack if the Bat managed to avoid or get away from the Fighter since it was then in the Ochre Jelly's threat range.

As a DM the best I or anyone else can strive for is to be both fair and consistent. I shouldn't allow the Dragonborn with the greatsword to attack 10' up in one instance (the Shadowbat) and deny it another (the goblin on the 10' wall)...BUT you can be sure that I'm going to grant the goblin Cover since the Dragonborn is attacking around a horizontal corner.

Also, a human (medium humanoid) could use an unarmed attack on a creature almost 15 feet above the ground. A 15 foot kick, perhaps (but not a jump kick....one presumes that could go farther up....30 feet?).

This I just don't quite follow, sorry for being dense. I think some of it is the language we use to describe 3-dimensions. "15 feet above the ground" to me translates to where there feet are, what they're standing on is 15 feet high, the creature if Medium-sized like a Human or Elf or whatever would then be occupying the 4th & 5th squares vertically unless they were prone and would then be in just the 4th square. In those instances, no, since a Human only has a 1 square reach they couldn't attack a creature a full 2 squares above them.

As to visualizing a Human attacking the goblin with an unarmed attack that is on the 10 foot high wall (3 squares up), it's not always clear to me either how to imagine that. But when you extrapolate with unarmed attack potentially being just jumping up a bit so they can do an arm sweep at the goblin's ankles before they drop back down, sure, I can see that. When we get the Monk class (or whatever the Ki Martial class is going to be called) we're going to have to think about weird situations like this all the time. Fun!

 

[abyssaldeath]

As far as how far up a person can reach I found this in the athletics skill under jump.

To determine if you can reach something while leaping, add your character’s height plus one-third rounded down (a 6-foot-tall character would add 8 feet to the final distance, and a 4-foot-tall character would add 5 feet).