D&D 4E In 4e combat, is an ooze as tall as a human?

[firesnakearies]

In my mind a PC uses their Move Action to jump up a certain distance, then uses their Standard Action to attack before gravity pulls them back down.

This seems sensible to me. I'd rule it like this, too.

(But they wouldn't be able to continue moving any unused squares of their speed after landing, in this case.)

 

[JackSmithIV]

Definitely the GM's call. I'd call it in favor of the player's in that situation.

Biggest problem I have with oozes in 4e is narrating them. I consider myself a very colorful, descriptive, cinematic narrator. Oozes I find tough in this regard.

 

[DrSpunj]

This seems sensible to me. I'd rule it like this, too.

(But they wouldn't be able to continue moving any unused squares of their speed after landing, in this case.)

Agreed! As I said, a Minor Action I'd be okay with, but if you had any movement left over from your Move Action when you Jumped you essentially forfeited it when you switched to your Standard Action to attack.

At JackSmithIV: me too, I think because it's hard for me to envision exactly how they're moving and attacking and whatnot. The MM helps define that since it's a Large Long creature it only has 1 square of Reach, but I have a very hard time going with the "Spaces are Cubes" logic here. As a Large creature with a 2x2 space that'd obviously be 2 spaces high for it to "fill". Since 2 creatures can't occupy the same square, my mind stumbles on how exactly the ooze is filling those top 4 squares of that 2x2x2 cube when it gets stuck in low-lying chambers, can't climb stairs, etc. A Gelatinous Cube is much easier for my mind to wrap around in this regard.

 

[Nail]

A Gelatinous Cube is much easier for my mind to wrap around in this regard.

..and yet, a Gelatinous Cube can attack one square up, right?

 

[Keenath]

I don't think it's an issue to allow pseudopods. Just because an ooze can stick out enough material to whallop you with, doesn't mean it's enough to lift itself with. And just because they can't "climb stairs" doesn't mean they can't get up over a six-inch barricade. It may be that a jelly can't support itself on a flight of stairs and just slides back down like a human would if you replaced the stairs with a smooth plane. It could still cross a short flight of stairs (no more than waist high on a man) or a low wall, but couldn't get up an entire story without sliding back down unless it could find... well, effectively a wheelchair ramp, or stairs no steeper than that. Thus they can get "trapped in a low lying chamber" but aren't incapable of getting off the floor.

Anyway, oozes aren't intelligent. It might be that they could theoretically climb stairs with enough effort, but they don't have enough intelligence to actually enact a plan like that, in much the same way that a fly can easily go out the open side window of my car but spends hours slamming itself against the windshield instead.

 

[DrSpunj]

..and yet, a Gelatinous Cube can attack one square up, right?

IDHMBIFOM, so I don't know what the Gelatinous Cube entry looks like in 4e. It's not something I reviewed for our session nor to date for this discussion. I'm not sure how it attacks, but after reading your post I immediately thought: assuming it's a Large creature that is as Long as it is Tall, what kind of reach does have? 1 square or 2 squares?

Hopefully the entry clarifies one way or the other. I'll have to check it out when I get home. Visually I keep picturing this ooze cube just charging into PCs, trying to engulf them, and therefore not needing any reach at all.

 

[Nail]

Visually I keep picturing this ooze cube just charging into PCs, trying to engulf them, and therefore not needing any reach at all.

...And there's the issue again. If only us players had telepathy, so we could know how you (the DM) would rule!

A Gelatinous Cube is a cube, one presumes. So does that make it long or tall? Or both?

(...and can it climb stairs?)

 

[DrSpunj]

...And there's the issue again. If only us players had telepathy, so we could know how you (the DM) would rule!

As long as it was selective, or the DM couldn't surprise the players which, IMO, would take a lot of the fun away.

A Gelatinous Cube is a cube, one presumes. So does that make it long or tall? Or both?

(...and can it climb stairs?)

As always, let's start with the RAW and see how many of our questions it answers (whether we like the answers is entirely a different issue). If you or someone else can replicate the stat block (or the relevant bits) here then we can analyze how the entry works with that Size table on MM pg 6 or any other rules that've been brought up in this thread. Without that info I'm not in a position to discuss much of anything since I've only seen the 4e Gelatinous Ooze on two occasions IIRC: 1) flipping my way through the MM while trying to put together interesting encounters for you (one of my players), and 2) in a certain WotC 4e module when I read through it earlier this year.

I'm not discussing anything here in the Rules forum that starts with my extremely poor recollection of the GC from either of those sources!

 

[firesnakearies]

Gelatinous Cube Level 5 Elite Brute
Large natural beast (blind, ooze) XP 400
Initiative +4 Senses Perception +3; tremorsense 5
HP 152; Bloodied 76
AC 18; Fortitude 18, Refl ex 16, Will 15
Immune gaze; Resist 10 acid
Saving Throws +2
Speed 3; see also engulf
Action Points 1
m Slam (standard; at-will)
+10 vs. Fortitude; 1d6 + 2 damage, and the target is immobilized
(save ends).
Engulf (standard; at-will) ✦ Acid
The gelatinous cube attacks one or two Medium or smaller
targets; +8 vs. Refl ex (automatically hits an immobilized
creature). On a hit, the target is grabbed and pulled into the
cube’s space; the target is dazed and takes ongoing 10 acid
damage until it escapes the grab. A creature that escapes the
grab shifts to a square of its choosing adjacent to the cube. The
cube can move normally while creatures are engulfed within it.
Translucent
A gelatinous cube is invisible until seen (Perception DC 25) or
until it attacks. Creatures that fail to notice the gelatinous cube
might walk into it, automatically becoming engulfed.
Alignment Unaligned Languages —
Skills Stealth +9
Str 14 (+4) Dex 14 (+4) Wis 13 (+3)
Con 16 (+5) Int 1 (–3) Cha 1 (–3)

 

[DrSpunj]

Thanks much for this, firesnakearies!
There's errata for the following:

m Slam (standard; at-will)
+10 vs. Fortitude; 2d6 + 2 damage, and the target is immobilized (save ends).
M Engulf (standard; at-will) ✦ Acid

Neither of which really clarifies the issue we're discussing here.

Alright, Nail, I've had a chance to look at it. IMO since a cube is just as Long as Tall I'm going with a Reach of 1 by the flavor text and how I see the monster attacking. With both its Slam & Engulf attacks I think it's trying to ram into something directly in front of it since there's no mention of pseudopods or whatnot so a Reach of 2 doesn't fit since it's not reaching over or around anyone else. It's literally a wall of jello sludging around like a juggernaut banging into things. With its Slam attack either it didn't have a lot of momentum maybe, or didn't have enough of a "hold" onto its target to Engulf them, but enough to stick them in place (the Slam's immobilize).

To attack up, I'll admit I had to mentally kick this around for awhile. The best way I can see this attacking up is imagining this giant cube of jello pulling in on all of its sides so that it's top is forced up. I can easily imagine this flexible goo gaining enough height that it can attack 1 square in that direction and that mental picture also works for how it's attacks work against creatures on the ground around it if it doesn't move or charge.

I can't see this thing jumping up with enough force to get any higher and expect it would be thwarted by any crevasse greater than 5+ feet wide where it is likely to just fall in, but there's no mention about this having difficulty with stairs and whatever. Still, with Strength & Dex Mods of just +4 and no other skills besides Stealth, it's not going to be making too many Athletics or Acrobatics checks.