D&D 4E In 4e combat, is an ooze as tall as a human?

[Nail]

I can't find where I said "any medium humanoid" and with good reason, because not all Medium-sized humanoids are exactly the same.

They are, however, treated exactly the same within the RAW. With reason, I think.

Comparing a 6.5" tall Dragonborn with a greatsword to a 4.6" tall Dwarf with a Dagger (or his hob-nailed boot!) isn't going to work.

But it does work: the example points directly at the problem with ruling that medium sized humanoids are two squares tall (or one square tall, determined on a case-by-case basis).

Wouldn't it be simplier - and easier to justify - if all medium sized humanoids were 1 square tall, and could attack 1 square beyond that?

If I understand what you're ruling here:

• A dwarf (medium sized creature) is only one square tall.
• A dragonborn (medium sized creature) is 2 squares tall.

and therefore

• A flying enemy must be two squares up to attack the dwarf (a medium sized creature).
• A flying enemy can be three squares up and still attack the dragonborn (a medium sized creature).

....Which leads me to wonder if the dragonborn shouldn't duck.

I think you are also saying that:

• A dragonborn (medium sized creature) with a greatsword can attack someone standing 3 squares up from where the dragonborn is standing.
• A dwarf (medium sized creature) can NOT attack the same enemy with an unarmed attack (his hobnailed boot).

....Which leads me to the following question: "If the dwarf had a greatsword, could he attack someone standing 3 squares up?" and "If the dragonborn attacks with his boot, could he still attack someone standing 3 squares up?"

 

[Victim]

Umm where in the books did you find vertical squares? There are no cubes that I have seen in 4E, just a grid and you can have a height if you are flying. Did I miss something...won't be the first time

And the Ooze can reach, unless it specifically says in its description that it cannot one larger creature can do the same as an other large creature, in the same way that you can push an ooze it can reach a flying bat IMO

Vertical squares are mentioned in the DMG under aquatic combat IIRC.

 

[Aristotle]

Planar areas are always handled in squares, so for consistency you have to handle three dimensions in cubes. A medium sized humanoid takes one cube. That's it. Sure, their head and shoulders might technically go into the cube above them when they are standing up nice and tall (just like their arms and legs go into adjacent cubes when striking at enemies)... but very few fighting stances work from the "make yourself as tall as possible pose", so tactically they should just get the cube that their center mass occupies.

No rules to back that up, but it's how I rule it at my table.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Wouldn't it be simplier - and easier to justify - if all medium sized humanoids were 1 square tall, and could attack 1 square beyond that?

Yes, very much so. It's as good or better an abstraction as the 5ft square, armor class, or even hit points. Trying to split hairs between similar heights and then abstracting to discrete 5ft sections is illogical.

 

[DrSpunj]

Yes, very much so. It's as good or better an abstraction as the 5ft square, armor class, or even hit points. Trying to split hairs between similar heights and then abstracting to discrete 5ft sections is illogical.

Except that's exactly what the Athletics skill does with the Jump rules; thanks to abyssaldeath for adding that to our conversation.

Without RAW to guide us further consider the following similar situation:

The party wants to cut a reinforced rope stretched parallel to the floor, 10.01 feet up. Perhaps doing so drops a portcullis or takes the main support out of a bridge nearby to block Nasty Things from getting to them or invading their country or something. The party Fighter is the only one who's present, but he could be a Dragonborn, a Dwarf, or a Halfling, each of which of average height for their races (6'6", 4'6" & 4'0" respectively).

According to Nail (I think, correct me if I'm misrepresenting you) and some others who've posted here:

• All Medium & Small humanoids occupy 1 Space and therefore are only 1 square high because all creatures' Spaces are actually cubes (RAW?)
• Creatures can reach any object in an adjacent square(s), up to their defined Reach (defined for Medium & Small creatures as 1 square)
• The melee weapon being used is irrelevant, as long as it is not a Reach weapon

Per the RAW, what Athletics DC is appropriate for each PC to be able to jump up and damage the reinforced rope with a melee attack?

Obviously a Running Start is going to help. <shrug> Creative PCs I'd expect to throw their melee weapon as an improvised ranged weapon (assuming there wasn't a significant chance it'd fall off the cliff edge or something), or if two were present might Balance one PC on top of the other. Too bad the Fighter's not a Cleric, Warlock or Wizard but them's the breaks.

And thanks to Victim for reminding me about the "Movement in Three Dimensions" section on DMG pg 45. I knew I'd read the section before but couldn't remember where; unfortunately it's as unhelpful now as it was when I read it this past summer and felt it was woefully inadequate for how 3D combat was going to work at the table!

 

[firesnakearies]

Is there any provision in the strict rules as written which would allow a PC to make an actual attack while in the middle of a jump (move action)? Besides perhaps some powers?

 

[GoLu]

What's up with these distances of 14.99 feet or 10.01 feet? Isn't the whole point of abstracting everything to 5' squares that you don't have to worry about distances between exactly 10 feet and exactly 15 feet? You know, because they don't exist under that abstraction?

(And clearly, different rules in the game use different levels of abstraction. Combat likes 5' blocks, while some skills use a finer granularity, presumably because detail like that matters more for skill challenges but would just bog down combat.)

 

[nittanytbone]

Sure, it could attack vertically -- there's nothing that says it can't.

Why would it attack the bat, however? With dumb monsters like slimes and oozes, I usually assume that they have a symbiotic relationship with other monsters in their same encounter and thus usually don't eat them. If they are adversarial and in the same encounter, then they might be worth less XP and thus there are more of them (as they'll be wasting their actions attacking each other instead of the PCs).

 

[eamon]

I'm all for consistent rulings, but I think the rules serve the purpose of consistency and believability, not the other way around. I find it entirely reasonable to say that a 1-foot tall ooze unable to climb stairs has no vertical reach. Having said that, if a DM decides that's reasonable, and the player's didn't think of it this way, it's the DM's responsibility to make sure a DM-player misunderstanding doesn't result in ridiculous in-game situations: no sane PC would take into account something that seems impossible.

Occasionally rattling the rules like this keeps you on your toes and encourages thinking outside the box. As long as this kind of deviation from the rules is consistent, reasonable, and infrequent, I think it's fun!

 

[DrSpunj]

Is there any provision in the strict rules as written which would allow a PC to make an actual attack while in the middle of a jump (move action)? Besides perhaps some powers?

In my mind a PC uses their Move Action to jump up a certain distance, then uses their Standard Action to attack before gravity pulls them back down. Their Minor Action would have to be before or after all of that, not in between. And I'm just as okay with that as using the Move Action to make a horizontal jump which the PC finishes (from one rooftop to another, say) before using their Standard Action.

I want to see Skill usage and creativity as much as possible from my players with appropriate PC knowledge as I think it only makes the game better and more fun for all of us. Doing so seems to frequently step outside the RAW since they're not meant to cover all situations, which then requires a DM interpretation. I am trying to say "Yes" as much as possible when the players throw something at me out of left field, but it's definitely a mental switch from 3e where the rule set was near exhaustive and too frequently self-conflicting. I think this way is much more fun, personally!