In defense of Open Gaming

[Scatterspell]

Well I have this to say about the whole arguement. If you haven't read the OGL and OGC you don't know that with one you have to confrom to D20 with the logo and all that. THe other youc an tear apart and pretty much do what you want with (within certain limits). This includes NOT having to use the PHB. So with this license you make your own game independent of D20. This is a fact the two bashers on Decipher are totally ignoring. Plus they are stating thier dislike of the D20 system as bonafide fact that it is bad.

I personally am ok with the D20 system, it fits right into the heroic fantasy/sci-fi/whatever genre. Its not supposed be realisitc. its a friggen game!!

But I also want a more open ended classless fantasy RPG (not gurps or other of the generic systems) So I am tearing apart D20 and building my own. If I manage to keep it within the OGL license (the license that covers n D20 related games) and I feel it is good enough, I will publish it. Funny how I will make a game that DOES NOT require the D&D PHB but still use WotCs SRD.

Ah well the detractors will twist facts to fit thier deluded fantasies of how things should be.

 

[Corinth]

I think they put classes & levels in because they knew that old school 1e lovers like myself would have picked up the new PHB, saw no classes and almost none of the classic mechanics and said, "This isn't D&D! What happened to D&D?"

That, in all seriousness, is exactly what happened.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

And it's a good thing. If the system had been too radically different I wouldn't have bought it. The classes and levels are part of the D&D feel to me. I would have probably bought GURPS instead if 3e had been radically different, or played 1e.

 

[Corinth]

While the upper management at Decipher do not, the designers (former LUG & WotC employees) do. But management is boss here.

A problem that's easily solved with some dirty office politics.

Then again, it is simply up to every business. I mean look at Gold Rush Games. They're going with the open gaming approach, but they're not using Wizards' OGL, but their drafting their own Action! System license. (Currently, they posted a Temporary License at www.action-system.com.

I'm with Dancey on this one; it's a damned stupid and pointless move when the OGL is already there and does the same thing just as well (if not better).

And while White Wolf has been publisher and distribution house for such companies as Arthaus, Sword & Sorcery Studios, and Necromancer Games -- all d20 designers -- the open gaming approach stop short of their own Storyteller System. They're not ready to open their in-house rules system...

... Unless you overhear something different, Orcus.

I agree that Open Gaming is a great opportunity for game designers to showcase their talents, but it's not a bona fide get-rich-quick scheme.

I would like for the Wieck boys and the others at White Wolf to release Storyteller--preferably, the Aeon Continuum version seen in Trinity, Aberrant, Adventure! and Exalted--under the OGL. IMO, they are the only company other than WotC who could pull it off.

 

[Ranger REG]

I'm with Dancey on this one; it's a damned stupid and pointless move when the OGL is already there and does the same thing just as well (if not better).

Then we'll have to get the word out and change public perception that the Open Gaming License is not only for the d20 System but for any open rules system.

I mean after over a year since their introduction, they still confused the trademark license with the Open Gaming License, and it doesn't help when no one is willing to go forth and produce an OGL-based product without the market value of the trademark brand.

So here's hoping that S&SS will succeed with EverQuest ... Although I have had earlier hope that AEG would stick to their original gameplan of making Spycraft and the hoping-to-see-soon Farscape as OGL-based products.

It may be an unwise move, but Action! System are gaining support from third-party publishers, especially those who "spat" on Wizards.

 

[Steve Conan Trustrum]

Re: Is a "Level-less" RPG even possible?

Is there really such a thing as a "level-less" RPG? If you think about it, don't all RPGs reward you X amount of something (experience points, skill purchase points, etc.) to gain, purchase, or otherwise acquire Y amount of new abilities, skills, etc., thus becoming more "powerful", at least in some sense?

Sure, every rpg I've seen uses some type of advancement system, but this isn't synonymous with a system that uses levels. Take WEG's d6 Star Wars game, for instance, by looking at a character's stats you can tell whether or not he is inexperienced or a kick butt pro, but none of their abilities are tied to anything resembling "levels".

For a better comparison, look at the point based system for Champions (HEROES) vs the level based superhero system of Palladium's Heroes Unlimited. In the former, the number of points a character has gives a good idea of how many times a character has been around the block but his abilities aren't based on levels; the character could have put all of his points into a single energy blast power or he could have spread it out. In Heroes Unlimited, however, a level based system if you see a character has a certain amount of dice for damage in his energy blast you can immediately know what level he is.

So yes, there are indeed true level-less rpgs out there to be found.

 

[Hawkshere]

Traveller never had any character advancement system (at least until T20). Traditionally, all play rewards are non-mechanical ones, i.e. fame, fortune, etc. That is the most significant game I can think of. This leads me to 2 observations.

The leveling 'carrot' is not strictly required for a game to become a long term and influential success, but you'd better have a very compelling setting and style to back you up.

Traveller's game network strength is its longevity, not its size. It's almost as old as D&D, but will never have the same kind of network size.

Perhaps the best carrot game will always be more popular than the best non-carrot game?

I'm looking forward to seeing T20, but level advancement in Traveller is just going to be wierd...

 

[Thorin Stoutfoot]

levelling vs. slow advancement

I've played slow advancement games such as GURPS. Yuck! 1 feat or skill point per session? It's not substantial enough to get excited about. Especially compared to D&D, where there are certain key levels such as 5th level for Wizards, and 6th level for fighters where certain benefits suddenly kick in (like more attacks, or 3rd level spells) and it really does feel good.

I don't think anyone can argue that it's insignificant.

 

[GrimJesta]

Plus I feel that levelling is the surest way for a GM/DM to gauge the basic power level of his game in order to tailor encounters of his/her campaign. Ive played alo of the level-less games (ie: Hero, Cthulhu, Vampire, etc) and I must admit that as a DM for over 15 years I feel that the levelling system is one of the fairest ways to tailor a game's encounters. The level-less systems really require an annoying amount of work on the part of the GM and a complete and utter familiarity with the system in order to create balanced ancounters that arent too easy or too hard.

But with D&D 3e its CR of encounters vs ECL of party.

Thats damn easy and saves alot of time and effort.

-=grim=-

 

[Ranger REG]

I wasnt saying the people who run Decipher dont have a clue. I dont know them. I have no idea. I was just talking about the people who were posting on that specific thread.

Oh. Sorry about the first statement. I do agree about those on the message board (at least some of them).