D&D (2024) In Interview with GamesRadar, Chris Perkins Discusses New Books

Kurotowa

Legend
Question: if barbarian, for example, becomes a sub-class, then what is, say, an ancestral guardian? The sub-sub-class?

Because that's sort of what they've already done with category, class, sub-class.
It would require a full re-evaluation of the role and power budget of subclasses. Like, when mocking up character ideas, I often run into the fact that Paladins and Rogues just don't have a lot of range in their subclasses. The core features are too strong and the subclass doesn't have enough to work with. Barbarian and Ranger can be a bit samey too, though not as much so.

Do you add a third layer, the sub-sub-class? Certainly demoting Barbarian and Paladin to Fighter subclasses doesn't feel great. You kind of want the extra layer of differentiation. Early 5e Revised playtests tried having that third layer, but adding it to the other end with the four Role types that should share similarities and have feats keyed to them. But they pulled back from that after the first round of tests.
 
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Staffan

Legend
The spell source groupings are just one example: is assigning spells to groups of classes actually appreciably "better" that assigning spells to individual classes?
It is basically the way Pathfinder 2 does it, and it works there... sort of. The difference is that Pathfinder is much more aggressive when it comes to releasing both new classes and new spells, and being able to say "This class casts Divine spells" is a smooth way of ensuring compatibility with additional material both previously released and yet to come. It's a way to avoid things like "Level adept 1, alchemist 1, arcanist 1, bloodrager 1, cleric 1, druid 1, hunter 1, investigator 1, oracle 1, paladin 1, psychic 1, ranger 1, shaman 1, sorcerer 1, spiritualist 1, summoner 1, summoner (unchained) 1, warpriest 1, wizard 1" (which is from the PF1 version of endure elements as listed on Archives of Nethys where they incorporate all the other classes).

The cost is that you don't really get bespoke spells that are adapted to the way this particular class does things. For example, the PF2 magus casts Arcane spells. That means you can't use their spells to do things that merge magic and swordplay, because they cast the same spells as wizards. Any such shenanigans have to be a class feat and/or a focus spell.

Given that D&D has a very conservative approach to releasing new classes, the main rationale for the PF2 method doesn't really exist.

Can you expand on what you find objectionable about this? Because it's one of the few thinks Perkins has ever said that I agree with!

Many of the current classes make no sense, constantly step on each others' toes, and are kept around (IMO) solely because removing or reorganising them would upset people. Barbarian and paladin are fighter subclasses, they just get their own class for purely contingent reasons. Likewise the monk, but with extra orientalism. A druid is just a nature cleric with a cargo cult built around its historical baggage. Sorcerers are wizards without hats; warlocks are wizards in corpsepaint.

In my experience, new players constantly stumble on the wizard/sorcerer distinction in particular -- it's the kind of thing a competent designer would have fixed in an early draft.
I can concur with the wizard/sorcerer differentiation in particular – it served a role in 3e where wizards were classically Vancian and sorcerers had spontaneous magic, but with the neo-Vancian 5e wizards that difference is mostly gone which makes differentiating between wizards and sorcerers hard.

But I disagree in general. In the 5e scheme, a class is what you want when you want an archetype with depth and multiple interpretations. It's like the old Psion argument. Yes, you can use the Aberrant Mind sorcerer to kinda make a psion, if you squint a little. And if you're doing an Eberron one-shot where one of the PCs is a kalashtar, that's fine. But it does not suffice if psions are supposed to be a major part of your world – it's enough for one psion, but not enough for multiple psions with their own mechanical identity.

The same can apply to barbarians, monks, and paladins. Do you just want a fighter that gets angry, or a fighter that fights unarmed, or a holy warrior? Then they can be different types of fighters. But do you want warriors that channel primal magic in a variety of ways to enhance their fighting prowess? Or a variety of mystical martial artists? Or holy warriors dedicated to different causes? In that case you should probably have them as separate classes.
 

He is talking about game design and reducing a large number of choices down to a series of small choices. This reduces the amount of information players need to start playing.

I.e.
Instead of having to read and choose between 12 options, reading 12 pages..
You instead choose between 4, and next level you read and choose between 3.

So now a player only needs to read 4+3 =7 pages.
But the game still has 4*3 = 12 options.

The same reason why computers are divided up into folders. Or why you have a closet for towels and a closet for clothes.

Now there is certainly lots of room for debate over how to organize all that. But there is good reason to do so.

I.e.
Fighter 1: choose between knight, brute, or archery.

The level 2, Knight divided to Paladin, Armoror, and Shield Master

Had it's benefits.
And then there are people who want subclasses at level 1. Which has some advantages, but a lot mkre disadvantages.

I would love:
Level 0: species and background
Level 1: class group
Level 2: class
Level 3: subclass
 

Agreed.

I think they want less classes, but no where did they say 4.

Maybe like 7 classes.
Martial (Fighter, Barbarian)
Half Caster (Ranger, Paladin, Artificer)
Monk
Rogue
Magic User (Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard)
Divine (Cleric, Druid)
Warlock
Nah.

Rather:
Warrior (paladin, fighter, barbarian)
Expert (bard, rogue, ranger)
Priest (monk, cleric, druid)
Mage (wizard, sorcerer, warlock)

Or something like that. I think classes need to be reimagined a bit to make that work. Which is probably why it failed in OneD&D.
 

Tales and Chronicles

Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
Nah.

Rather:
Warrior (paladin, fighter, barbarian)
Expert (bard, rogue, ranger)
Priest (monk, cleric, druid)
Mage (wizard, sorcerer, warlock)

Or something like that. I think classes need to be reimagined a bit to make that work. Which is probably why it failed in OneD&D.
Nha, more like 3 classes, but with more choices within them. 😋

Warrior, Expert, Spellcaster.

Your ideal ranger could be either a Pathfinder Warrior, an Explorer Expert or a Sojourner Spellcaster, for exemple.
 


mellored

Legend
Question: if barbarian, for example, becomes a sub-class, then what is, say, an ancestral guardian? The sub-sub-class?
I don't see a reason it couldn't still exsist. Just allow mix and match.

Warlocks have "pact" and "patron". You can be a Hexblade / Fiend or a Tome/Fiend

So why not have
Fighter (Barbarian / Ancestral Guardian )
Fighter (Barbarian / Battlemaster)
Fighter (Champion / Ancestral Guardian)
Fighter (Champion / Battlemaster)

Not sure what you would call that...
Multi-subclass?
 

mellored

Legend
Nah.

Rather:
Warrior (paladin, fighter, barbarian)
Expert (bard, rogue, ranger)
Priest (monk, cleric, druid)
Mage (wizard, sorcerer, warlock)

Or something like that. I think classes need to be reimagined a bit to make that work. Which is probably why it failed in OneD&D.
I was going by basic mechanics.

I.e.
Martials gets multiple attacks
Magic user gets spells slots
Monks get points.
Rogues get sneak attack.

I guess you might be able to unify sneak attack dice and bardic inspiration dice.
Getting Xd6 per turn to spend on stuff.
 
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