D&D General Inherently Evil?

[Scribe]

In the real world? Even dogs know when they're being treated unfairly. Good and evil is grounded in biological instinct. But philosophers have debated that for millennia, there's not a good answer.

In the game? It's a vastly oversimplified construct used to categorize the bad guys. Why are they the bad guys? Because the game says they are. Which, of course is circular logic but it doesn't have to have any more depth than that in a game that uses constructs such as HP, AC or easily quantified abilities such as intelligence.

I don't play D&D to have discussions on advanced philosophical questions that will never be answered, I play it to have fun with friends, a few laughs and escape reality where I can't truly know who the bad guys are. Well, except for Bob. He's a bad guy.

Different people play for different reasons. I do think the MM should be far more explicit than it already is that the alignment in the MM is just a general suggestion for the entries that the adventurers are likely to face as opponents. But define good and evil? Other than "you know it when you see it", never going to happen in the real world.

This speaks to my point. I'm not even talking real world.

I'm talking about a world in which there are entities which may or may not be formed by the primordial forces of creation, which may or may not exist anyway.

I'm talking about a world in which Gods are real (or not) are champions for those primordial forces (or not) and hold meaningful power over the people of the world.

Or where Undead, can realistically be seen to be talking, thinking, moving, creatures.

What is 'Evil' in such a place?

Can you have a race created which inherently disregards what the Western World of Earth considers morally appropriate?

I'd almost think that would be a sure thing, assuming the other races of the fantasy world are not just humans in funny hats.

 

[Lyxen]

"What is Evil?"

I'm not going to answer this in a philosophical way, but every single edition of the game since BECMI (and even then chaotic was very often the "evil of the time") has had a fairly consistent definition of evil. I agree that what complicates matter a bit is the fact that this definition is a modern one, but basically consciously doing things that hurts/harms others is evil. And I don't think that it needs to be more complicated than that.

 

[Scribe]

I'm not going to answer this in a philosophical way, but every single edition of the game since BECMI (and even then chaotic was very often the "evil of the time") has had a fairly consistent definition of evil. I agree that what complicates matter a bit is the fact that this definition is a modern one, but basically consciously doing things that hurts/harms others is evil. And I don't think that it needs to be more complicated than that.

Fair enough, mine goes even more basic "ones actions are based upon selfish desires before consideration of others".

 

[Lyxen]

Fair enough, mine goes even more basic "ones actions are based upon selfish desires before consideration of others".

It's a good one as well, the reason I use mine is that my perspective is that evil is judged by the actions themselves more than the intention (although intention can be a factor in determining the degree of malice).

 

[Charlaquin]

I think that this is exactly what I'm saying it can be produced by a system but it does not absolve individuals who, of their own free will, follow that system because of its influences.

Oof. I mean, I guess that’s a valid philosophical position, but it doesn’t say very positive things about any of us, who willingly consume products made by an exploitative system.

 

[Scribe]

It's a good one as well, the reason I use mine is that my perspective is that evil is judged by the actions themselves more than the intention (although intention can be a factor in determining the degree of malice).

Interesting, I come it from the complete opposite.

An act, can be lawful, or chaotic, or good, or evil, and be the same act.

The intent behind it, in my view on the systems/concepts is what determines its nature or alignment.

 

[Jfdlsjfd]

Evil and Good don't exist in real life as objective concept. In some RPGs, they can exist as a scientifically testable concept (I cast "Detect Evil" on him. Does he flash red?) and be objective.

In such a concept, I don't see our real life conceit that we can't be "evil" or "good" without the ability to choose being applicable. Of course, we'll put murderers in jail and we won't kill their children to spite them, but that's not necessarily something generally applicable, it's just a legal concept (and maybe even only a Western legal concept).

Let's imagine a setting in which "Good" is "what the good gods decreed to be good" and "Evil" is "what is forbidden by the good gods". There is not necessarily an overlap between what we deem good around the table and what the good gods would think. If you're playing in say, Biblical Egypt, you're supposed to think it's "Good" to threaten to kill the first-born of those who wouldn't smear blood on their door, even if the first-born is a little baby without ability to make moral choice (or have any say in what is smeared on the family's door). In such a setting, the infant in his cradle would register as Evil when a detection spell is cast upon him. If you're playing in an Aztec setting, you're expected to consider that it's OK to sacrifice your foes to ensure the continuing existence of the Sun, which would be labelled as good, despite our moden views being more nuanced on these practices. It might not be for everyone (not all settings are equally palatable), but after all, part of the roleplaying appeal is imagining how a character would think, not how we would fare if we were put in the characters' shoes.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

I am in the “don’t overthink it” group.

demons, undead are all easy. It’s what they are.

people? Humanoids? We have always played nature and Nurture. Drizzt is possible and so are LG orc.

antisocial behavior has some heritability. Not a ton but some. So does impulsivity and a host of other behavioral tendencies. But it’s all in the lends of learning and experience.

there should not be “whole groups” of inherently evil people. But there surely could be evil societies that usually produce them.

I have no problem with almost always evil drow if they are from a twisted society.

in my campaign orcs are conquerors and raiders like Vikings. Raise one in a town that treats the orc child like a valued member of the group and there is going to be the possibility of some other outcome.

having some “Viking” ancestry does not make me a raider. I am a lover and not a fighter. I don’t even know if I want to eat meat forever. But I have that heritage or “blood.”

for me if you have an inherently evil group it’s because of evil magic (demons) or because the only examples we see come from a certain group.

this in fact is making me want to play a lawful good half orc as we speak…also got a thing for neutral duergar. Go figure.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Swans.

I was gonna say geese, so yeah that tracks.


Primordial Evil would be one way, or Elemental Evil.

it’s perfectly cromulent to say that beings from beyond reality don’t have free will and aren’t mortal sentient beings, or to say that fiends are elemental expressions of a particular kind of evil and as such are barely beings much less possessed of free will. They’re like a campfire, but evil instead of fire.

But if it’s a race of people that have babies and whose culture can change over time as result of decisions made freely, they can’t be inherently evil.

 

[Lyxen]

Oof. I mean, I guess that’s a valid philosophical position, but it doesn’t say very positive things about any of us, who willingly consume products made by an exploitative system.

You know what, I completely agree, but my answer is "we are only human". If I look at myself critically, I know I should be doing more charity work than what I'm doing, and that I should cut on my personal fun and gaming to do this, it would be the nice thing to do. But still, I'm doing a bit and I hope it's better than doing nothing. And I know that I should not order as much as I do from Amazon, and not consume as much as what is produced by some countries which I really dislike. But again, "only human". It's easy to look down at what happened in Germany, but would I really have behaved any better ? It's easy to judge until you are being tested.

D&D is an oversimplification, not a real simulation, and if it simulates anything it's not real life anyway...