D&D 5E Initiative of summoned monsters

[MechaTarrasque]

Summoning has always done this. It is a well-documented way to bog down the game and break the system. All 5E did over 3X(the system they modeled the majority of 5E after) was make it take 30 minutes instead of 45. And frankly, I don't think it makes a lick of difference is Bob takes one half-hour turn, or six 5-minute turns. The end result is still that it takes Bob considerably more time, slows down the game and is more likely to break the encounter.

If they wanted to actually fix summoning (which they didn't) then the solution is simple: summons work like concentration spells and you lose your action to command them instead. Multiple summoned creatures would act like swarms, attacking the same target and sharing the damage (to keep things quick and simple), single summons would work as "replacement" characters. While Bill the summoner runs around trying not to get hit, his Mammoth whoops booty.

But 5E really didn't want to address these issues. And their half-hearted attempts left the wound smaller, but still open.

It's one of the reasons I've largely gone back to 3X, if I've going to play a system with all the same flaws, I'm going to play the one with vastly more content.

4e summoning tended to function like that (with the pleasant [for DM's] aspect that if you summoned a demon and didn't use your action to have it attack something, you suffered some consequence [particularly bad if you wasted a balor's time]). It wasn't perfect (the summoned critters didn't have all the abilities of the nonsummoned critters, I.e., why can't my pit fiend do the stuff that other pit fiends do?), but I think the devs might have thrown the baby out with the bathwater in trying for a more pre-4e style of summoning. It reduced issues of questions about what you get when you summoned something (each spell was for a specific type of demon/elemental/angel (for invokers), ditto for class abilities for the warlock's allies (fey/elementals/abberations/devils)* and kept the battlefield clutter down (no use summoning a bunch of minions if you could only control one)

As for mass summoning, I suspect that was put in to support mass combat that never really took off. Those type of spells could have waited for a mass combat module to come out.

* They tried to bring this back in the Old Black Magic UA (where spells summoned specific types of demons), but it must not have playtested well. I will say the way 5e conjure spells pick monsters does open up an ever increasing list of options, which I have to admit beats the old "here is your list of monsters, which you can expand if you take this feat or get that boon."

 

[Calm_EyE]

The big issue (and argument) that I've seen is that summoned creatures with high initiative are often punished by acting later than a summoned creatures with lower initiative, since if they roll above the caster's initiative, they wait until next round to act. IMO, there are two methods of "fixing" this issue, that should be decided in session 0.

1) If a creature is summoned into a combat during a turn, and that creature's initiative is higher than the current turn, reduce its initiative to be just after the current turn. Summoning in this case is refereed to any creature that is magically brought into the area as a result of an action or effect.

2) This is a feature, not a bug. When choosing what type of creature to summon, you should consider the initiative modifier in relation to your current initiative, and those of other creatures.

I feel like you have really nailed the core of this issue here.
As always communicating with the players is key; I always think that GM's should sit down and talk to their players beforehand, and ask them regarding their plans of levels and spells, as well as expectations and general preferences.

 

[touc]

The rules read pretty clearly, and for design purposes, there's a significant advantage in prior editions in coordinating all summoned creatures on the same initiative. I also get a concern for players: I cast a summon but get damaged and lose the spell before the creature ever gets a turn. That's a risk many concentration spells have and heck, it could happen even if your summoned creature was going to act this round if the enemy initiative came out a certain way.

Even if the monster doesn't get an action in the round it is cast, it still provides many benefits (adjacent enemy, another target).

In the case of Summons, there is a strategic advantage for casters who by item, feat, or luck have a high initiative roll, as they stand better odds of a summons acting immediately, and that's not a bad thing for high initiative to carry some advantage. It's supposed to.

But, if a house-rule is desired wherein some utility is gained the round the spell is cast, you can always let the monster act immediately when summoned, then roll initiative for it the next round. But that's not how the spell is written and it increases the power of summon spells. If your perspective is they are underpowered, go for it.

 

[Sunseeker]

4e summoning tended to function like that (with the pleasant [for DM's] aspect that if you summoned a demon and didn't use your action to have it attack something, you suffered some consequence [particularly bad if you wasted a balor's time]). It wasn't perfect (the summoned critters didn't have all the abilities of the nonsummoned critters, I.e., why can't my pit fiend do the stuff that other pit fiends do?), but I think the devs might have thrown the baby out with the bathwater in trying for a more pre-4e style of summoning. It reduced issues of questions about what you get when you summoned something (each spell was for a specific type of demon/elemental/angel (for invokers), ditto for class abilities for the warlock's allies (fey/elementals/abberations/devils)* and kept the battlefield clutter down (no use summoning a bunch of minions if you could only control one)

It's astounding why I love 4E so much. >.>
I just can't get a group together.

As for mass summoning, I suspect that was put in to support mass combat that never really took off. Those type of spells could have waited for a mass combat module to come out.

I don't know if they were stretching for page count or what, but the mass combat rules in 5E seem to be a terrible red herring from the game. Like, they were trying to make this sub-game within the game for this very niche group of people who occasionally run wargames with the D&D system and what they ended up including was just generally useless.

* They tried to bring this back in the Old Black Magic UA (where spells summoned specific types of demons), but it must not have playtested well. I will say the way 5e conjure spells pick monsters does open up an ever increasing list of options, which I have to admit beats the old "here is your list of monsters, which you can expand if you take this feat or get that boon."

The bane of D&D has always been stat-block stealing. For Druid forms, for summoning, etc...because monsters were designed to fight PCs and PCs were designed to fight monsters. Monsters weren't designed to fight monsters (and by extension, PCs aren't really designed to fight PCs, which is why we have stat blocks for "bandits" and "gladiators" and also PC classes for thieves and...gladiators.) Having "special, different, for player-use only" summoning/wild shape information is page-count-increasing, but better for the game.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

It's astounding why I love 4E so much. >.>
I just can't get a group together.


I don't know if they were stretching for page count or what, but the mass combat rules in 5E seem to be a terrible red herring from the game. Like, they were trying to make this sub-game within the game for this very niche group of people who occasionally run wargames with the D&D system and what they ended up including was just generally useless.


The bane of D&D has always been stat-block stealing. For Druid forms, for summoning, etc...because monsters were designed to fight PCs and PCs were designed to fight monsters. Monsters weren't designed to fight monsters (and by extension, PCs aren't really designed to fight PCs, which is why we have stat blocks for "bandits" and "gladiators" and also PC classes for thieves and...gladiators.) Having "special, different, for player-use only" summoning/wild shape information is page-count-increasing, but better for the game.

I like the 4e summoning rules (and the "form of" rules) myself. The disparity between what the PC's pet could do and the monster they were based off of was hard to ignore at high levels, but PC's aren't really summoning pit fiends or balors in 5e anyway (not to mention the lower level fiends and elementals are a lot more "pure combat monster" than in many previous editions (especially devils) and the CR limit on conjure celestial reduces the combat issues with all the goodies they get). Nothing I can put my finger on, but I have had the impression that conjuring/summoning (and pets) in 5e is not something the devs feel good about--if there is a 5.5 or 6e, I suspect this is an area that will change, although to what is beyond me.

 

[Azzy]

In the course of a discussion about the initiative of summoned monsters at https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/02/1...ured-animals-roll-a-15-do-they-go-on-my-turn/, Jeremy Crawford said this:

Honestly, we never should have had spells tell you to roll initiative for creatures. The general rules just need a line that says, "If a creature joins a battle that's already in progress, roll initiative for the creature as normal."

I don't know if this is one of the great contentious issues in 5e, but this seems like a straightforward rule. Any thoughts?

I like this approach.