D&D 5E Insight into value of petrification and paralyzation in terms of xp value when building monsters?

[surfarcher]

Apologies for the necro, but I did get a mention.

Like I said, I would especially love to hear from anyone who has analyzed the numbers- maybe [MENTION=84774]surfarcher[/MENTION]?

Hello! I've been away from monster analysis for a while but I am considering coming back to it again now. If there's community interest. Do you think there is?


What was clear to me in my pre-DMG analysis was that these all seem to be treated as "removed from play" (aka RFP) attacks. My analysis used average damage rather than peak damage, which the DMG method uses. But even so it seemed pretty clear to me that RFP attacks do factor into Offensive CR.


I actually spent a couple weeks working on RFP attack. What I found fit my model was factoring it into the damage part of Offensive CR. I multiplied the average HP of one PC at the target CR level by an RFP Modifier (1.5 in my model) and then multiplied the result by the probability of hit (i.e., by hit, DC or other attack vector). For example a 40% hit probability uses a 0.4 mutiplier. This method brought all RFP examples I could find quite close to the model curves.


Again, this based on my average model, not the peak damage model in the DMG.

That's basically what I was getting at - there is no exact measurement of how petrification affects the targeted character, so if there are good chances to avoid it there is no measurable effect upon CR.

I believe it's actually relative to target CR.

When I am beefing up a monster, and I get into this type of situation that is not listed on that chart in the DMG, I simply round up. In other words, if the defensive CR rating is 2 and the offensive CR rating is 3, the average is 2.5; I then round up to 3.


Not a very statistical analyses, but it has worked for me so far (Party is level 12)...

As a rule of thumb, like with quick stat-ups, this actually works out pretty well. In most cases anyway.

Well, for the record, I just tweeted Chris Perkins about it. We'll see if he replies.

Did you hear back from him?

 

[the Jester]

Hello! I've been away from monster analysis for a while but I am considering coming back to it again now. If there's community interest. Do you think there is?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I love reading your analyses of the subject. So I'm interested, at least!

What was clear to me in my pre-DMG analysis was that these all seem to be treated as "removed from play" (aka RFP) attacks. My analysis used average damage rather than peak damage, which the DMG method uses. But even so it seemed pretty clear to me that RFP attacks do factor into Offensive CR.


I actually spent a couple weeks working on RFP attack. What I found fit my model was factoring it into the damage part of Offensive CR. I multiplied the average HP of one PC at the target CR level by an RFP Modifier (1.5 in my model) and then multiplied the result by the probability of hit (i.e., by hit, DC or other attack vector). For example a 40% hit probability uses a 0.4 mutiplier. This method brought all RFP examples I could find quite close to the model curves.

What values are you using for the average HP at a given CR? That seems highly variable. And what are you using to figure the hit probability, i.e. what values are you using for the target's AC?

Did you hear back from him?

Yeah, but it was a pretty worthless reply. Something along the lines of, "These effects are basically insta-kills. They are hard to rate.", with no actual guidance.

 

[surfarcher]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I love reading your analyses of the subject. So I'm interested, at least!

The truth is I got a bit burnt out by the end of the last lot and the DMG made it all seem redundant. Which I always expected to happen. I feel refreshed again now tho and I can't stop tinkering with DMG based numbers in spreadsheets anyway.

Let's see... the blog has a dozen followers plus half a dozen enworlders seem to like it (some are probably blog followers tho). Looks like I'll never be Penny Arcade, but that's not really the point. If there are 15+ people who enjoy it I think it's worth doing.

I guess I better start writing this stuff up ;-)

What values are you using for the average HP at a given CR? That seems highly variable. And what are you using to figure the hit probability, i.e. what values are you using for the target's AC?

At this sateg I'm simply talking about what I used in my blog.

For PC hitpoints that was in Part 7...

PC HP=8 × Level + 1​

I didn't actually work out the curve for PC AC, I simply worked off what I had presented on the WotC forums (you can see most of it in archive). Best match is a simple poly2 (like y=-0.006 * Level ^ 2 + 0.26 * Level + 15.7) but almost as good is the simpler, more elegant, power variation...

PC AC=15.5 * level ^ 0.056​

Yeah, but it was a pretty worthless reply. Something along the lines of, "These effects are basically insta-kills. They are hard to rate.", with no actual guidance.

I love Chris and he is an amazing DM, but I don't think he's the math guy behind the system.

From a mathematical standpoint I'd argue insta-kills are RFP. From a play standpoint, what about resurrections? Death is RFP, it can just be more permanent. I believe RFP effects can and should be included in calculating CR. But hey, I've been wrong before and Chris is staff so a pinch of salt and all...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What's RFP?

 

[Syntallah]

What's RFP?

Remove From Play

 

[surfarcher]

What's RFP?

Remove From Play

Yep! (Although for some reason I always say "Removed". I don't know why and that's probably just one of my own little idiosyncrasies.

It includes some fear effects, being teleported away, being sent to another plane, paralysis, pertification, death and anything else that takes you out of the fight, temporarily or permanently.