Inspiration is a PC-on-PC Social Skills Question

Are you assuming that I (or my PC) feels inspiration simply as a result hearing a positive statement that we agree with?
You might be. Or you might not. That's your choice.


But my point was that inspiration is divorced from the source.

You don't have to respect a blacksmith to make use of his sword.
You don't have to respect a wordsmith to make use of his words.
 

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Of course first you have to assume that the character's spirits are down and that they have lost hope. Which conflicts with a character who is an eternal optimist and never let's things get him down.
The idea of the 4e fluff text being quoted is that buoying the ally's spirits restores hps. If you have some hope left, you have some hps left. In that context, the 'eternal optimist' you posit would have to have infinite hps. So, sure, if you talked the DM into giving you infinite hps, you would never need an inspiring word. Seems consistent enough. Also seems like you want to play very extreme, one-dimensional characters, for the sake of bolstering a position you've already conceded, above.
It always conflicts with something. That's part of the problem.
No, you can always make up something that conflicts, you are inventing a problem where none exists.

Look, you've already acknowledged that you have no problem with the Warlord being an optional addition to the game. There is no possible way it could be anything but an optional addition to the game, so what are you even trying to accomplish with this line of non-reasoning?

And a lot of these examples are of characters focusing their training in certain areas, and can be answered by multi-classing. Of course you can always multi-class into Warlord, so I guess that's a wash. As long as you don't mind having to take levels in Warlord in order to be an inspiring figure.
That's an aspect of a class-based system. If you want to mix capabilities of different classes, you do some MCing. 5e takes it a bit further with background and feats that partake of most classes' shticks. You can be a something/rogue, or you can just take the criminal background. You can be a something/Cleric or just take the Acolyte background and maybe Magic Initiate feat. You can be a something/warlord or take the Soldier background for rank and maybe the Inspiring Leader feat.

Really, the maybe-a-little-bit-warlordy stuff is already in place. Backgrounds, a feat or two, a couple of SCAG sub-classes. It's just the full class that's needed.

You can think of the magical Bless spell like taking performance enhancing drugs, but without any negative side effects. You are pumped up, you are energized. The source doesn't matter, Bahamut or Wee Jas, it has the same effect.
But what if you're an 'eternal optimist' who's always pumped up & energize? Or you're Eyore and /never/ pumped up & energized? The magic overrides that (no saving throw, no opt-out), taking away your player agency in that instance.

If it's inspiration, OTOH, you can always decline it, so you clearly retain your agency.

Here's another Tolkien-related exercise which may throw some light on the discussion. Imagine a party of PCs who relate to each other much as the Fellowship does (large group!). Aragorn has "Ranger" on his character sheet and Gandalf has "Wizard." Now, imagine that any of the others has "Warlord" written down. How would inspiration in the party work then?
Imagine any of them having 'Cleric' written on their sheet and it'll make even less sense.


And if Aragorn doesn't have "Warlord" on his character sheet, what's happening at the table between his player and Boromir's in that Moria scene quoted earlier?
Maybe he has a level of Warlord, maybe he has a feat that gives him one warlordly trick, kinda like Martial Adept gives you a Battlemaster trick. Maybe the fact that literary characters preceded the class system means they don't have to conform to it. Instead, the system needs to model them, and a Warlord would help D&D do so a lot better.

No, but it is described as magic elsewhere, and the article says that being described as magic is one of the tests to apply.
No, the quotes you mention don't describe the Bard's inspiration power as magical, they describe the bard as using magic - which he does: he casts spells.

So what's the difference between drawing on the power and magic? When we talk about wanting a non-magical support class, we want to be able to produce effects without reliance on spell slots, without those effects being dispelled by dispel magic, or negated by anti-magic zones, or coming with any religious or arcane baggage like demanding deities, pact-patrons watching over your shoulder, bloodlines, colleges, or cabals of wizards.

If you need "because magic" to justify stuff, cool. Have at.
That's another issue that was hashed out in this sub-forum, already. If you need to believe that only magic heals, or only magic inspires, or whatever, you /can/, just leave the door open to that same sort of (EX) power or magic-of-the-universe explanations as Bardic Inspiration, Dragon Breath, or what-have-you. Rationalize it.

See, I don't think that mundane non-magical words from a mundane non-magical person work that way unless I have a particular relationship with that person.
There's a lot of room between non-magical and outright mundane. PCs in an heroic fantasy game may or may not use magic, but they're not likely mundane. Extraordinary, but not supernatural, might be a better way of thinking about it. Bless or Aid uses a supernatural agency (divine power) to force a specific feeling on a target whether it makes any sense for him to feel it or not. Inspiration can produce similar feelings, and it's a RL (mundane) phenomenon. In the context of heroic fantasy, you might very well have an Extraordinary individual who does something that's not supernatural, but does it to a degree or with a consistency or a disregard for mitigating factors that far exceeds the mundane. Just having more than a handful of hps is an example of such extraordinary ability: a D&D character can enter into quite a lot of danger with virtual certainty of survival (without lasting consequences) that'd be quite impossible in a mundane context.
 
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So what's the difference between drawing on the power and magic? When we talk about wanting a non-magical support class, we want to be able to produce effects without reliance on spell slots, without those effects being dispelled by dispel magic, or negated by anti-magic zones, or coming with any religious or arcane baggage like demanding deities, pact-patrons watching over your shoulder, bloodlines, colleges, or cabals of wizards.

I find this very interesting.

Your Warlord doesn't want anyone demanding things of him, watching over him, or having to belong to any group or organization. But he does want the rest of the characters to accept his commands and inspiration, allow him to keep an eye on them and shout out warnings, and require them to work together with him as a team.

Basically the Warlord should not be beholden to any being or group, but everyone else needs to listen to him... Because he's inspiring.

Now I understand there is a matter of degree here. It is suggested that the Warlord will be a respected equal, whereas a Deity is obviously a superior to his worshipers. So it is not quite the same thing, but I think there is some similarity in the desire to be independent and self-reliant.
 

I find this very interesting.

Your Warlord doesn't want anyone demanding things of him, watching over him, or having to belong to any group or organization. But he does want the rest of the characters to accept his commands and inspiration, allow him to keep an eye on them and shout out warnings, and require them to work together with him as a team.

Basically the Warlord should not be beholden to any being or group, but everyone else needs to listen to him... Because he's inspiring.

Now I understand there is a matter of degree here. It is suggested that the Warlord will be a respected equal, whereas a Deity is obviously a superior to his worshipers. So it is not quite the same thing, but I think there is some similarity in the desire to be independent and self-reliant.

Meh.

There was (in one of the playtest packets) a subclass warlord-y guy who got 5 or 10 of his own knights to command, even in battle.

I don't care about whether or not the other pcs like, respect, follow, or whatever.

Hell, give me the NPC Knights and let my inspiration work on them!

It really isn't about forcing other human players to listen to me or like me. It's supposed to be a support role (stupidly named leader role in 4E). So it's about support. Just as the warlord isn't a caster, he's also not a Fighter. His predominant role is support.

But if the respect thing is that much of a mosquito bite, how about a subclass with some NPCs attached to it?
 

So we get the Warlord as a Feat problem. Right now anyone can inspire another character (although with the mechanical benefit determined by the DM). As soon as you introduce the Warlord, now you have to take levels in Warlord to inspire.
Huh? Isn't this like saying that feats that let you cast a spell or two are rendered redundant by the existence of spell-casting classes (or vice versa)?
 


The spell does still work, and this makes sense because the spell doesn't care what you believe or what you are doing. The magic just enhances your abilities, in this case it is enhancing your mental and emotional abilites, your morale.

You can think of the magical Bless spell like taking performance enhancing drugs, but without any negative side effects. You are pumped up, you are energized. The source doesn't matter, Bahamut or Wee Jas, it has the same effect.
How does this relate to Bless being an Enchantment spell? Or are you house-ruling that away?
 

Here's another Tolkien-related exercise which may throw some light on the discussion. Imagine a party of PCs who relate to each other much as the Fellowship does (large group!). Aragorn has "Ranger" on his character sheet and Gandalf has "Wizard." Now, imagine that any of the others has "Warlord" written down. How would inspiration in the party work then?

What if Boromir is the Warlord?

Merry?

Gimli?

Legolas?

Any of the others?

And if Aragorn doesn't have "Warlord" on his character sheet, what's happening at the table between his player and Boromir's in that Moria scene quoted earlier?
What happens if Gandalf's player has "assassin" written on his/her PC sheet? Events play out differently, I guess. I don't really feel the force of the question.

I do not accept that a target under the effect of the Bless spell necessarily, as a result of the spell, feels any kind of positive emotion toward the cleric or the cleric's deity.
You haven't answered my question, though - it is mind control, no save. What do you think is going on when that spell is cast on a character who hates the cleric and his/her god? What do you think is going on when the cleric of Bahamut casts it on an assassin who then cuts down an innocent person from behind, enjoying a bonus on that attack roll?

Well, at least you come out and admit it.
I accepted it for the sake of argument ("But even if we put all these cases to one side, and treat admiration, love or respect as the paradigm - I don't see the problem"). It's not some "gotcha" moment of concession.

My character is still being forced into positive emotions toward another character because of another player's mechanical actions.
Why do you say "forced"? In 4e you can reject the healing/buff - why do you think 5e would be different?

And I really am missing something - why do you think so many players want to play characters who are emotionally indifferent or hostile to their fellow PCs?
 

Lord Twig said:
The spell does still work, and this makes sense because the spell doesn't care what you believe or what you are doing. The magic just enhances your abilities, in this case it is enhancing your mental and emotional abilities, your morale.

You can think of the magical Bless spell like taking performance enhancing drugs, but without any negative side effects. You are pumped up, you are energized. The source doesn't matter, Bahamut or Wee Jas, it has the same effect.

How does this relate to Bless being an Enchantment spell? Or are you house-ruling that away?

Drugs can alter your state of mind and improve your performance. They don't actually make you stronger, they don't change your muscles in anyway, but you can ignore pain or fatigue and keep performing at your maximum ability. And it doesn't matter who gave you the drugs. It could be a well-meaning coach or a slime-ball drug dealer.

Inspiration can give people the motivation to continue on, but it isn't as good as drugs. If it was you wouldn't see so many athletes taking drugs. Lance Armstrong was a top athlete, but it took drugs to let him win the Tour de France seven times in a row. All the coaches and pep talks in the world could not beat drugs. What chance does it have against magic?
 

Look, you've already acknowledged that you have no problem with the Warlord being an optional addition to the game. There is no possible way it could be anything but an optional addition to the game, so what are you even trying to accomplish with this line of non-reasoning?

Good question.

Yes, an optional Warlord for those that want it is fine. What do I care how other people play their game? If they are having fun with it, that's great!

The reason I keep posting is to explain why not all people are going to like the idea of the Warlord and why it shouldn't be forced on them. The pro-Warlord faction seems incapable of seeing how it would be a problem for other people. And it not because we have bad character concepts or can't role-play properly. Let's not go to the Wrong Bad Fun argument.

Ok, I'll try one more example with a theoretical class. The Romantic.

The Romantic class picks another character as their romantic interest and gets special powers to protect or aid the selected character. The romantic interest doesn't even need to return the Romantic's affection. They could despise the character and the powers work fine, so no player agency is robbed. The Romantic can also grant inspiration buffs to his romantic interest, but they don't need to accept them.

And yet I think we can all agree that the Romantic class would be pretty bad without the consent of the target character's player. But if both players were on board, then it could be a really fun class. And who are we to deprive them of the fun?

It's the same thing with the Warlord. If a group likes playing with the Warlord then full steam ahead! Have fun! But if even one player doesn't want to be the Warlord's "teammate interest", then it shouldn't be forced on them.
 

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