D&D (2024) Interested in new dragon designs for 5e (5.5e or 6e)?

Yaarel

He Mage
I don't know when it was first illustrated but the story of the white and red dragons dates to at least which was written in 828. Every illustration of those dragons I have seen is of the 4 legs & 2 wing variety and actually look very similar to the current red dragon.
This is of course the classic image of the Welsh Red, but I couldn't find a date of when this design first appeared.
View attachment 115021

Yeah.

In the older stories about a dragon, the earlier authorship often had a different image in mind for what the dragon looked like, than the one that the later audiences had.

For example, the story of Fafnir shapeshifting into a dragon (Dreki). A runestone from around 1000 depicts it as a massive horned snake, breathing out vapor of venom. But later, a wood carving from the 1200s depicts Fafnir as having eagle arms and eagle wings, and a more lionlike head.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
Here is an image of the Welsh red and white dragons from a manuscript from the 1400s. (Historia Regum Britanniae, Lambeth Palace Library MS 6 folio 43 verso. )

This British dragon seems to me more like a snake-bat-WOLF blend, rather than a snake-eagle-lion blend. Here, the snake seems a common threat, but the darkness of night of the bat, and the predatory wolf, seem more salient primal fears.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
Apparently, the instructions for the modern Welsh flag comes from the 1400s, introduced by King Henry 7.

Photo_of_Y_Ddraig_Goch.jpg




Next is an earlier rendering of this Welsh dragon in the coat of arms of King Henry 7, with a red dragon and a greyhound, dating from 1504.

The body is more lionine, maybe with fish fin ears, bat wings (that here look more like fish fins), wolflike head, and snakelike tail that resembles the dog tail opposite it. Later versions of this coat of arms will make the dragon head, body, and tail look much more like the greyhound.

coat.jpg





In comparison, the modern Welsh flag seems to return to the more snake-like body, with the transition of the neck and tail more consistent with the girth of the body.
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
Dating from the 500s BCE in Iraq, the Ishtar Gate of Babylon portrays a dragon.

wpid-Photo-2014071023540920.jpg


This image shows the features more clearly, with helpful contrasts.

The Akkadian name Mush-Khushu (Sumerian Mush-Khus ‘snake of red’) refers to a snake. The ancient 'red' color includes the ‘fiery’ colors including orange. Its head has a forked tongue, and whitish horns above the eyes, here seen in profile. An earlier Sumerian depiction clearly shows two straight horns above the eyes. The crest at the back of the head, is possibly feathery plumage, or possibly leathery, horn, or even fur akin to a lions mane. (The Sumerian version has the crest in front, before the horns.) Similar to the crest is the ridge down the back of its neck. It wears a collar, and serves as a sacred guardian. Its body is lionlike with snake scales. The forelegs are lion with fur, and the hindlegs are eagle. The tail is lionlike, but of snake scales, and undulates like a snake. Mush-Khushu remixes the snake-lion-eagle dragon blend.

Horned Viper
Desert_Horned_Viper_2.jpg
 
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Yaarel

He Mage
I was wondering where the legs of the snake ‘should’ be. The answer turns out to be pretty much anywhere because there are so many animals that evolved snake-like bodies independently. Some have long tails, some have short tails, some have forelimbs, some have hindlimbs, etcetera. This is also why the origins of how the snake lost its limbs remains surprisingly scientifically uncertain, with hot debates such as whether its origin descends from a terrestrial burrower or an aquatic swimmer. Yet snakes are successful in so many environments, perhaps an other adaptation explains the loss of limbs. The classifications of species within the ‘snake-like’ clade Ophidia, and their relationships to each other, remains somewhat arbitrary and disputed. Comparing to lizards, the snake relates most closely to the gecko.

Nevertheless, there is a fossil of a now extinct ‘four-leg-snake’ Tetra-pod-ophis, discovered recently in Brasil. It is approximately 30 centimeters. (Yet fossils of other species of snake can reach 15 meters, such as Titanoboa, discovered in Colombia.)

Taxonomy assigns the four leg snake to: the class Reptilia (‘reptiles’), order Squamata (‘scalies’, including lizards, snakes, and similar), an inserted clade Ophidia (‘snake-likes’), then the genus Tetrapodophis (‘four leg snake’).

At the very least, this is one example of a reallife snake that shows locations for where the limbs would go.



Tetrapodophis (reconstruction from fossil, assuming terrestrial habitat, and guessing its coloring)
Tetrapodophis amplectus (ashley).jpg


Tetrapodophis (reconstruction from fossil, assuming aquatic habitat, and guessing its coloring)
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Other reconstructions
Tetrapodophis 5.jpg

9f4863c3d0a4586c605fcff7f509308c.jpg

Tetrapodophis 3.jpg
 
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dave2008

Legend
I was wondering where the legs of the snake ‘should’ be. The answer turns out to be pretty much anywhere because there are so many animals that evolved snake-like bodies independently...
...Tetrapodophis (reconstruction from fossil, assuming aquatic, and guessing its coloring)
Ugh, that would make a terrible dragon ;)

Personally, I don't think we should try to mimic real life animals too much when we are talking about fantasy monsters. Nice to use them for inspiration, but I'm not interested in copying or clear chimeras myself.
 

Yaarel

He Mage
I don't think we should try to mimic real life animals too much when we are talking about fantasy monsters. Nice to use them for inspiration, but I'm not interested in copying or clear chimeras myself.

The intention is for inspiration. Referring to the location for the legs, if the legs are larger, then the body proportions of the Tetrapodophis approximate that of the East Asian dragon.

652px-Coat_of_arms_of_Hong_Kong_%281959%E2%80%931997%29.svg.png


Chinese-Dragon-Green-17-large.jpg


Note the stylization often dislocates the arms and legs. Yet the impression is suggestive of the Tetrapodophis.



(Also for the Norse dragon, the forelimbs of the Tetrapodophis seem a good location for functional large prehensile arms.)



The East Asian dragon is traditionally understood to blend nine different creatures together. But exactly which creatures can vary from tradition to tradition. For example:

The snake body has ...
• head of a (bactrian) camel
• paws of a tiger
• but these paws have talons of an eagle
• the fiery eyes of a devil
• ears of an ox
• horns of a deer
• neck of a snake (as opposed to the neck of a camel)
• scales of a carp fish
• soft belly of a frog
plus hair and beard (looks like mane of a lion?)
plus fish fin spine

The Asian Dragon lives underwater in a river, lake, or so on, but flies thru the air to make it rain, and so on.
 
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Lucas Yew

Explorer
Are you sure that is a mythologically accurate Chinese tradition − as opposed to a D&D disinformation?

It's based on a RL Chinese legend-based idiom which states that if a carp manages to swim up a certain point in the upper Yellow River (specifically, somewhere near the Longmen Grottoes), it instantly grows into a full-fledged dragon. BTW, the idiom itself means "a major chance for one's social success."

On the other hand, most East Asian dragons are usually said to either mutate from serpents who achieved enough enlightenment, or like their non-Asian counterparts, reproducing true. It seems that the latter was the norm the further you go back in history, because since all other totemic creatures of ancient China were real animals, it is speculated that the original "Lōng" dragon was actually a real life yet now extinct aquatic reptile. In fact, artifacts from said ancient times depict them in more realistic proportions as an extant creature, not the mix and match serpent demigods they are as of now...
 

dave2008

Legend
The East Asian dragon is traditionally understood to blend nine different creatures together. But exactly which creatures can vary from tradition to tradition. For example:
In some East Asian traditions it is supposed to have features of all the other animals of the zodiac
 

Samloyal23

Adventurer
In ancient times there were dragons that were clearly part animal, some with multiple sets of legs, extra heads or tails, even multiple pairs of wings. I see no reason not to call something shaped like an ankylosaur that has eight legs and breathes acid by the term "dragon".
 

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