Interesting Cleric Request from a Player - Is this possible in the rules?

[Bozidar]

I'm a player in a game, with the DM, and one other player. Our group badly needed a cleric, so my fellow player was asked to roll up a cleric.

Now, to be fair, he volunteered to do so, and wasn't forced to do so.

Anyway, the crux of our dilema is that he doesn't (or didn't) want to have some sort of higher being that he would have to have a relationship with.

His idea was that his cleric, through discipline, learning, and skill, was able to harness the energies of the world about them, and used them for divine magic.

Our DM balked at this idea for one central reason -- it would mean that there was no code of conduct that this character would have to follow. The cleric would never be in danger of becoming an ex-cleric in any way, because there was no moral standard for him to follow.

With most clerics, even those getting their powers from non-god beings, such as nature, or the ocean, are expected to act somewhat in concert with that being's needs/beliefs/whatever.

It's not a big negative, IMO, but it seemed like more of a big deal to our DM. We went back and forth all day on it, but wound up at a solution..

But, without sharing our solution, what do you guys think of this idea?

Is there a rule that says that a cleric can do this? My fellow player insisted that it was in the PHB somewhere. I know there are a lot of contingency rules saying that you don't have to have a god, or a religion, but ultimately don't all clerics have to answer to some code of conduct expected of him/her by the source of the divine power?

 

[ForceUser]

Divine power comes from somewhere, even if you don't follow a specific diety. That's the whole point; your cleric buddy is supposed to be drawing magic from a wellspring of faith in something. Take away that perspective and well, what you've really got is a wizard who wears platemail and casts off the cleric spell list.

The best I can offer is what's stated in the PHB:

Some clerics devote themselves not to a god but to a cause or a source of divine power. These clerics wield magic the way clerics devoted to individual gods do, but they are not associated with a religious institution or a particular practice of worship. A cleric devoted to Good and Law, for example, may be on friendly terms with the clerics of lawful and good dieties and may extol the virtues of a good and lawful life, but he is not a funtionary in a church hierarchy.

That's the best your cleric player deserves. He needs to pick a cause or a source of divine inspiration to explain how he gets his powers, and the DM needs to work with him to come up with a philosophy that allows for the possibility of a fall from grace. If he's not willing to do even that little bit, I wouldn't let him play a cleric.

 

[Someone]

Using the energies of the world through discipline, learning and skill sound much more like arcane magic, I believe.

There´s actually godless clerics detailed in the PHB; you choose a philosophical (sp?) stance and devote your energies to follow it. But that doesn´t mean you can do what you want: you still have a code of conduct, even if you must answer to yourself instead of a higher being.

A good compromise would be to rule that he´s following the ideals of self-discipline (Law Domain) and Knowledge. He should have to devote himself to the ideals of higher learning and tireless study, discover ancient magics and energies, etc. Of course, if he ceases to become lawful he would lose the powers, since he now lacks of the discipline and will to command them.

 

[Chun-tzu]

Note also that rules will vary somewhat depending on the setting. In the Forgotten Realms, Clerics and other divine spellcasters MUST choose a deity.

 

[warpmind]

...through discipline, learning, and skill, was able to harness the energies of the world about them, and used them for divine magic.

It sounds as druidic speech IMO

 

[Zerovoid]

I've never seen a cleric become an ex-cleric, or even come close to it. Most of them follow their diety's belief's without any real threat from the DM. Regardless, its not a big deal to me either way. As is often stated, you shouldn't try to balance a mechanical advantage with a roleplaying disadvantage.

I say let the cleric just devote themself to the cause of good or something, as per the PHB excerpt that the others have quoted.

 

[spunky_mutters]

If I were going to allow it, I'd draw up a code of conduct with the player based on the player's choice of domains, and starting alignment.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

It's the whole point of divine magic: You believe in something, and through that belief you get your power. The power of that magic depends on your devotion (so a 10th-level Cleric of a demigod will still be better than a 5th-level Cleric of a greater god). If you don't believe in anything much, where would you get that divine power from?

If you draw your power from the world around you, you should devote to a cause that relates to the world: either keeping watch over this world (a priest of Green Piece, so to speak), or keeping the Balance.

If your DM allows it, you could play a Shaman (as in Rokugan d20). They rever the spirits of the Land (which could be the spirit of a place, an ancestor, one of the Fortunes, or any other Kami).

As has been said before: A Cleric of Atheism just won't work

 

[The Iron Mark]

Well, he could be an Ur-Priest, but I think that might be a little overpowered...

 

[daTim]

I've had one cleric lose his powers. I was a cleric of Helm, and used a Planar Ally spell to summon a Planetar to guard an area for 7 days. The price was steep, but I thought I could find enough treasure to pay him at the end of his service.
Needless to say, through bad party death, I did not have the funds and Helm found out about my failure on the deal. The Planetar raised his price to a virtually unpayable ammount for the late fee, and I refused to pay... to which the Planetar attacked me.
I ran away forsaking Helm for sending me this rogue Planetar to guard a Gate, and converted to a Tempus worshiper. My DM made me lose a level from the conversion process, which was pretty fair. Needless to say the Planetar tracked me down at Helms orders and slayed me with relative ease. It was unfortunate I had to die, but a pretty cool session none the less.

It was quite refreshing to see clerics go from the ultimate power class to having to follow guidelines and strict rules which in my opinion bring its power level back down to reality. We still refer to Clerics as "God Slaves" to this day