Invisible

[DracoSuave]

Rules:

Opposed Check: Stealth vs. passive Perception. If multiple enemies are present, your Stealth check is opposed by each enemy’s passive Perception check.

Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy (see “Concealment” and “Targeting What You Can’t See,” page 281).
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To that one confused guy, you are hidden. For you to not be hidden from him, he needs to make a perception check. That's all spelled out and in no way do the rules say that you should be treated as though you are not hidden.

Regardless, it's a moot point. Even if guessing your square is academic (which given the number of people pointing to someone it is. Hell, two people point, frakkin' triangulate, it's not -that- difficult) you're not likely to be attacking someone who you're at -5 to hit guess or not.

Altho, that DOES mean you have combat advantage to that target next turn.

I'm starting to re-evaluate faelocks.

 

[Nytmare]

Even if guessing your square is academic (which given the number of people pointing to someone it is. Hell, two people point, frakkin' triangulate, it's not -that- difficult)

Tomorrow, I'll try to find time to take a picture of 20 people standing on a tiled floor, all pointing to the same empty space, and we'll see how many people can figure out where they're pointing.

 

[karooba]

My gripes with invisibility

On a flat open field your enemy stands 20 squares away from you. You target him with your bow. He goes invisible. No prob you still have him. He runs 16 squares away from you in a random direction. No prob you know exactly where he is.

He gets his ogre friend to sneak up behind you and poke your eyes out. You're blind. 'Aha! Now try and find me', he thinks. He moves in another random direction and is now 40 squares away from you. No prob you know exactly where he is.

His ogre friend now ruptures your ear drums. You're now deaf as well as blind. He moves again so that he's now 56 squares away, thinking there's no way you can still know his location, but to no avail. You know exactly where he is.

If only he knew you were just level 1 with 0 perception ...

 

[Nytmare]

On a flat open field your enemy stands 20 squares away from you...

The rules are meant to allow you to find an abstract middle ground to mirror fantasy combat. They aren't meant as a reference point for you to perform science experiments regarding how hard it is for blind and deaf people to reliably spot invisible people when they're 500 some odd feet away in an empty field.

 

[Artoomis]

Tomorrow, I'll try to find time to take a picture of 20 people standing on a tiled floor, all pointing to the same empty space, and we'll see how many people can figure out where they're pointing.

Sheesh.

The rules support it, and it's not very hard, with practice.

"Hey, fool, he's at your two o'clock at 25 feet." Works pretty well, doesn't it? The -5 penalty serves pretty well to take into account inaccuracies involved in this method.

Either you are hidden or you are not. If anyone knows where you are, you're hosed (well, except invisible still means -5 to attack you). Simple, straightforward, predictable.

We are talking about heroes who, mostly, survive things that would routinely kill some of our most experienced and proficient soldiers. For the most part, they are the chosen few who can do the impossible.

 

[Flipguarder]

And yet the idea that they could unconsciously be quiet while invisible seems more than impossible.

And quite frankly I would call being invisible then someone going "Oh there he is 40 ft west from me and 15 feet north" without any special way of seeing invisible things is not entirely "predictable".

I say again, "invisible" just doesn't fit what WotC uses the word to define.

 

[Artoomis]

And yet the idea that they could unconsciously be quiet while invisible seems more than impossible.

And quite frankly I would call being invisible then someone going "Oh there he is 40 ft west from me and 15 feet north" without any special way of seeing invisible things is not entirely "predictable".

I say again, "invisible" just doesn't fit what WotC uses the word to define.

Actually, it's precisely the correct term.

Invisible., As in "not visible." Not the same thing as "undetectable." Without a successful stealth check, you might hear them, or see foot prints, or whatever works for you as a giving away that the character is at that location.

 

[Flipguarder]

What it comes down to then is that we have differing views on what is more plausible:

I think making no sound while moving 5 or 10 feet (at least not enough to be detected by someone about 45 feet away from you) is more plausibly an unconscious action (one you would not have to actively roll for) than determining where an enemy who is invisible is 45 feet away from you.

Obviously WotC has decided that this is the inverse of true. I take issue with that idea.

I understand and concede to your point of the definition it does fit in that way.

 

[Nytmare]

Sheesh.

No, that's just it. The rules don't support it. Real life doesn't support it. And the argument that "these are heroes" doesn't support it because the rule also has to apply to heroes who turn invisible.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

On a flat open field your enemy stands 20 squares away from you. You target him with your bow. He goes invisible. No prob you still have him. He runs 16 squares away from you in a random direction. No prob you know exactly where he is.

He gets his ogre friend to sneak up behind you and poke your eyes out. You're blind. 'Aha! Now try and find me', he thinks. He moves in another random direction and is now 40 squares away from you. No prob you know exactly where he is.

His ogre friend now ruptures your ear drums. You're now deaf as well as blind. He moves again so that he's now 56 squares away, thinking there's no way you can still know his location, but to no avail. You know exactly where he is.

If only he knew you were just level 1 with 0 perception ...

All he has to do is make a stealth check, is that so hard? lol. Just the fact that he's invisible at all means -5 to hit him. If there's some other combatant for your hypothetical person to engage then why exactly would he be bothering with invisible guy? If he's blind then he has -10 to Perception checks, which is enough to pretty much guarantee he's not going to know squat. Being deafened also imposes a -10 to Perception checks. The two penalties stack, for -20.

So basically your example is so contrived as to be silly. In any case the game designers could have devoted an entire chapter to some kind of horribly complex system for Perception and stealth but it would be insignificantly superior to the existing system in 99% of all cases and probably 10x harder to run. If the DM feels that a given situation warrants some kind of extra penalties or special rules then he's free to supply something for that situation.

You can take any given combat rule in the whole PHB and show some situation where it doesn't give perfect results for some absurd corner case. So what?