Invisiblity/Hiding/Attacking/Sneak Attacks

[Eldritch]

Maybe I am missing something, but the original question here was could you use rapid shot feat while invisible to damage 2 (or more) opponents and still get sneak attack damage.

My read on this is a big NO. And here is why (and it is completely different from the other posts) - If you attack while invisible and your opponents are not aware of you they are supprised. Pg 120-121 of PHB. If one side of an encounter is supprised there is a "Supprise round" which grants a PARTIAL action to the hidden party.

Rapid Shot feat can only be used if you take advantage of the Full Attack Action and the last time I checked you can't use a Full Attack Action during a Partial Action.

So, If you attack from hiding you can get off one attack. If you were Hasted (not in the original Scenario) you could get an additional partial action and make a second attack, which IMO as a DM I would rule that the supprised party could not react in time to regain their Dex bonus to AC and would therefore be subject to Sneak Attack damage.

At the start of the next round you would role initiative and the supprised combatants would still be flat-footed until their initiative. Meaning a highly dextrous Rogue with a good initiative bonus could probably get off yet another sneak attack (this time using the Rapid Shot Feat per the Full Attack Action) before the hapless victims could react.

Btw - I would rule the Invisibility drops after the first shot is made. But for the purpose of determining sneak attack damage it doesn't matter, it is only critical if someone were to get an attack off before the invisibility drops. Also all of this is supposing that the victims in this scenario did not spot the invisible Rogue to begin with, thereby eliminating the whole suprise idea.

 

[kreynolds]

kreynolds, you're building your entire case on the rather shaky distinction between "makes an attack" and "your character's next attack."

Actually, what I find "shaky" is your quote of Smite Evil. It doesn't say...

2. The paladin's smite evil applies "to her next attack."

It says "with one normal melee attack". The PH doesn't say what you quoted, neither does the PH, errata, nor the SRD. Did you quote that from the FAQ or another source?

However, since both invisibility and smite evil use the "attack" terminology rather than attack roll or attack action

Smite Evil does indeed use the terminology, "attack roll". It's in the second sentence. Again, I'm curious as to where you're quoting from.

 

[kreynolds]

Eldritch, you can be invisibile or hidden and use rapid shot after the surprise round. By the way, the section you are referring to in the PH specifically applies to the surprise round, and your original question asked nothing nor mentioned the surprise round at all. You also seem to be confusing "attacking while hidden or invisibile" with the surprise round, and the two are not necessarily the same thing.

 

[kreynolds]

why DotF forbids using the Quicken Turning feat to speed up the use of divine feats?

What "forbidden" divine feats did you have in mind?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It says "with one normal melee attack". The PH doesn't say what you quoted, neither does the PH, errata, nor the SRD. Did you quote that from the FAQ or another source?

I was quoting imprecisely. Howevery, the meaning is the same if I quote precisely as I shall demonstrate.

Smite Evil does indeed use the terminology, "attack roll". It's in the second sentence. Again, I'm curious as to where you're quoting from.

The smite evil ability from the 2nd edition PH p42: "Once per day, a paladin of 2nd level or higher may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma modifier (if positive to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per level."

Note that "one normal melee attack" is different from "one single attack roll" which is what you're trying to make this out to be. The dilemma still stands: either an invisible paladin who smites evil on her primary attack in a full attack sequence has finished making "one normal melee attack" or she hasn't. If she has, then she has finished making "an attack" and ought to be visible. If she hasn't finished making "one normal melee attack" then she hasn't finished making "an attack" and gets to remain invisible until she finishes--but she also gets to apply her smite bonusses to all attack rolls until she finishes that "one normal attack."

I'm well aware that the smite evil ability pretty clearly implies (although it doesn't state it explicitly) that it only works on a single attack roll. Invisibility also very clearly implies the same thing--your opinion and the Sage's notwithstanding. PH p.218 "If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear."

Considering the similarity of Insivibility's wording, I'm arguing that Invisibility ought to work the same way as Smite Evil--not that Smite Evil ought to apply to every attack in a full attack action.

 

[malichai]

Eldritch-

No, my question was can someone use Rapid Shot while invisible to attack an opponent, not opponents, and receive sneak attack on both attacks. Pretty much, from what I've read on this thread, and the Sages ruling, I'm going to go with yes, they do. Thanks for all of the input.

 

[Eldritch]

Eldritch, you can be invisibile or hidden and use rapid shot after the surprise round.

True, I mentioned that on the round following the supprise round the full round action could be taken and if the rogue had the higher initiative then it Dex bonus to AC would still be denied, hence Sneak Attack damage applied to both (or all) attacks.

By the way, the section you are referring to in the PH specifically applies to the surprise round, and your original question asked nothing nor mentioned the surprise round at all. You also seem to be confusing "attacking while hidden or invisibile" with the surprise round, and the two are not necessarily the same thing

Hmm, maybe. But lets look. If the rogue attacks while invisible before the other party is aware - that is a suprise situation. Thus the suprise round rule would be in effect. If no suprise existed. IE both parties saw each other and the rogue activated a ring of invisibility or cast from a scroll or whatever and then attacked while invisible, I am not sure that the dex bonus would be denied at all. Unless there was some other means of distracting the victims. Meaning no sneak attack at all.

In a larger combat situation I could see what you are saying, though. If the rogue was invisible while combat started and then uses the full attack option on Rd 2 or 3 of an ongoing combat situation, then that would be very similar to the situation the round after a suprise round, unless someone had spoted her, she would catch whomever she attacked flat footed until their next initiative. Thus no Dex bonus to AC and sneak attack damage is granted.

I think I assumed the suprise action because of the way it was described in the original post. However you were correct, it could simply be attacking while hidden during a larger combat.

In which case I stick by my earlier interpretation that you become visible after the first attack (shot) and that this does not matter as far as granting sneak attack bonus damage because the attackees (is this a word?) are still unable to respond until their next initiative.

 

[Eldritch]

Eldritch-

No, my question was can someone use Rapid Shot while invisible to attack an opponent, not opponents, and receive sneak attack on both attacks. Pretty much, from what I've read on this thread, and the Sages ruling, I'm going to go with yes, they do. Thanks for all of the input.

Malichai,

If you are hidden before combat begins going against one person or 20 if they are suprised then you can't use Rapid Shot on that first partial action "suprise" round. You can use it the next round though, and if you go first on initiative you still get sneak attack damage.

If it is an ongoing combat - and your opponent (or opponents - it doesn't matter) don't know you are there then they are denied dex bonus to AC and you get Sneak Attack damage. So have fun!

 

[kreynolds]

If the rogue attacks while invisible before the other party is aware - that is a suprise situation.

Just so we're clear, "surprise situation" is not a condition within 3rd Edition. It doesn't exist. I'm not trying to harp on you, it's just that when I first read your post, the term kinda threw me for a loop.

Thus the suprise round rule would be in effect.

Yes. I'm following you so far.

IE both parties saw each other and the rogue activated a ring of invisibility or cast from a scroll or whatever and then attacked while invisible, I am not sure that the dex bonus would be denied at all. Unless there was some other means of distracting the victims. Meaning no sneak attack at all.

This does not constitute a surprise round. PH, page 120...

The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the
combatants are aware of their opponents...

If both parties saw each other, it doesn't matter what the rogue does. Because both parties are aware of each other, the surprise round doesn't occur, because there is no suprise.

If the rogue has the highest initiative, he doesn't even need to activate the ring of invisibility to get a sneak attack. Also in the PH, page 120...

Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.

So, if the other characters haven't acted in the round, and the rogue has initiative, he can sneak attack, even without the ring of invisibility. Without uncanny dodge, everyone is flat-footed during the first round of combat, regardless of whether or not a surprise round occured.

 

[Zerth]

What "forbidden" divine feats did you have in mind?

DotF, page 19, Divine Feats:

"Since turning or rebuking is a standard action, activating any of these feats is also a standard action.
Third, you can't use the Quicken Turning feat to speed up the use of a divine feat."

ALL divine feats use turning attempts, so no quicken turning for ANY divine feat, Divine Might included. Complete list of divine feats in DotF: Divine Cleansing, Divine Might, Divine Resistance, Divine Shield, Divine Vengeance, Divine Vigor.