(IR) 4th ooc-thread of the 5th IR

[Edena_of_Neith]

So, starting with 350 Regular Armies, I could demobilized them and gain 350 IC to add to my starting IC?
That would double my starting IC, from 364.55 to 714.55.
It would also be suicide, but at least it would double my starting IC!

If I built 364 Regular Armies on Turn 1, then I'd have a total of 714 Regular Armies.
I could then (if they all survived the Turn) dismantle 400 of them, so I'd gain 400 to my starting IC on Turn 2, right?
Or, I could dismantle all of them (suicide, again) and gain 714 IC to my starting IC on Turn 2.

Heh. Decisions, decisions.

Now, if I could only dismantle Elite and Epic Armies. Nothing like getting 500 points more from the Elites! (again, it would be suicide, but if nobody was going to attack me that turn, boy could I roar ahead in the Technological Arms Race!)
I'm assuming you cannot dismantle Elite and Epic Armies, though.

-

I note, though, that if not dismantled, Regular Armies carry over from Turn to Turn.
That is, if I build 364 Regular Armies on Turn 1, they stick around. No need to pay to maintain them on Turn 2 or subsequent Turns. They just stick around, protecting my power.

The same is true with the Elite and Epic Armies, of course.

-

I recommend everyone look at my post back on page 2, titled my 3rd try.
Serpenteye says I'm correct in all my statements in that post, so it might help anyone unclear on the rules.

Even with those understandings, I'm vague on a few things still. I'll query about them later.

The biggest question I have (someone tell Serpenteye) is how many Armies can I have - TOTAL - up and running at once?
This includes all kinds of armies: Militia, Regular, Elite, and Epic. How many total Armies, of all kinds, can I have mobilized at once?

Based on what I read in the rules, it's roughly what my IC currently is, plus a little bit more. But I'm not sure of that.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Here's a question I think everyone has, and I didn't see any resolution of it in the rules:

Serpenteye posted:

Total Drow: 1,500,000 = 80 IC x 0.75 = 60 IC

From Edena:

Now, the maximum potential under your system for 1,500,000 beings is 90 IC. ((1,500,000 x 6) / 100,000)
It had already been dropped to 80 IC from the 90 IC that represents the theoretical maximum IC capacity of those people.
Now there's this NASTY x 0.75, dropping it to 60 IC.

Obviously, drow society is defective. (chuckles)

What must I do to make them go from defective to effective?
How do I get them up to that magical x 1.00 number?
And then, once I've done that, how do I get them up to the theoretical maximum of 90 IC?

And here's the clincher:

If I spend 320 PP on industrialization, your rules say I gain 160 IC for my power, for the next Turn.
But is that 150 multiplied by that nasty x 0.75, so I only get 120 IC of it?!
How do I fix this little problem, so it doesn't happen in the first place, and I get the nice x 1.00 equation instead?
And, then, how do I bump it from the 80 IC (under the magic x 1.00) to the full 90 IC? Obviously, Eclavdra wants her people to produce everything possible, and then some!

-

I am assuming that if I spend PPs to industrialize, it increases the size of my entire power.

But, I could be wrong, and if so ...

What if some sneaky player wants to spend PPs to industrialize ONLY those parts of his power that have the magic x 1.00 written after them, so that they get only the maximum increase in IC?

Consider my power again:

Empire of the Yuan-Ti: 2,000,000 (yuan-ti, servitor races, all others) = 100 IC x 1,00 = 100 IC

That's got the magic x 1.00 on it. I could industrialize only that. I could spend 300 IC on industrialization, get 150 IC for it, and put it all in the Empire of the Yuan-Ti, bumping them up to 250 PL from their current 100 PL.
That'd be a lot better than wasting them on those defective drow with their nasty x 0.75 multiplier!

I'm assuming this tactic is illegal. It is illegal? It ... is ... illegal ? .....

 

[Bugbear]

The .25, .50., 75, etc, I believe is the amount of control you have over your territory after infiltration. to bring it up to 1.00, you need to counter infiltrate.

In other words, it's not so much that your society is defective, whats happening is part of your industrial capacity is being leached away by another faction, being lost to rebells, or just plain old lazy workers.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Aha. So I must spend 6 points (1/10th of 60) to attempt to reduce the rank of Infiltration by one level, right?
And even then, they've still got a rank or two of Infiltration on my drow. (cries)

I couldn't spend 12 points, and try to overcome 2 ranks of Infiltration at once, could I?
Or spend 18 points, and try to overcome 3 ranks of Infiltration at once?
In other words, kick all the saboteurs and troublemakers out of my drow areas all at once!

I believe it is illegal under the rules to reverse more than 1 rank of Infiltration per turn, though. (cries again.)

-

If the nasty 0.75 multipler is caused by Infiltration, the other two questions are relavent still.
Does my expenditure of PPs to gain ICs next turn get compromised by the 0.75, so that I get fewer ICs, and the Infiltrator get the remainder?
Can I concentrate my industrialization in areas with the x 1.00 modifier, which are uninfiltrated, or must I distribute them across my entire power - I believe the rules say I must indeed distribute them across my entire power: until Serpenteye says otherwise that is what I'm guessing is the case ...

 

[Bugbear]

In any case, if the nasty 0.75 multiplier is caused by Infiltration, the other two questions are relevant still.
Does my expenditure of PPs to gain ICs next turn get compromised by the 0.75, so that I get fewer ICs, and the Infiltrator get the remainder?

Yes, it would.

Can I concentrate my industrialization in areas with the x 1.00 modifier, which are uninfiltrated, or must I distribute them across my entire power - I believe the rules say I must indeed distribute them across my entire power: until Serpenteye says otherwise that is what I'm guessing is the case ...

I don't see why not. You could only industrialize to the theoretical maximum for that area. After that is reached, as I understand it, IC can only be increased though technological development. I don't remember anything in the rules saying that points spent on industrialization effect all regions you own.

* The amount of power you invest into the province directly, at the beginning of each turn, determines the maximum amount of IC the province will give you next season. 1 power point invested gives you ½ points of IC, 10 PP invested gives 5 IC, etc. (½PPI + PPT = PPnt)

This passage leads me to believe that PP must be invested in a per-province basis. and not on your empire as a whole.

 

[Serpenteye]

So, starting with 350 Regular Armies, I could demobilized them and gain 350 IC to add to my starting IC?
That would double my starting IC, from 364.55 to 714.55.
It would also be suicide, but at least it would double my starting IC!

If I built 364 Regular Armies on Turn 1, then I'd have a total of 714 Regular Armies.
I could then (if they all survived the Turn) dismantle 400 of them, so I'd gain 400 to my starting IC on Turn 2, right?
Or, I could dismantle all of them (suicide, again) and gain 714 IC to my starting IC on Turn 2.

Heh. Decisions, decisions.

Now, if I could only dismantle Elite and Epic Armies. Nothing like getting 500 points more from the Elites! (again, it would be suicide, but if nobody was going to attack me that turn, boy could I roar ahead in the Technological Arms Race!)
I'm assuming you cannot dismantle Elite and Epic Armies, though.

-

I note, though, that if not dismantled, Regular Armies carry over from Turn to Turn.
That is, if I build 364 Regular Armies on Turn 1, they stick around. No need to pay to maintain them on Turn 2 or subsequent Turns. They just stick around, protecting my power.

The same is true with the Elite and Epic Armies, of course.

-

I recommend everyone look at my post back on page 2, titled my 3rd try.
Serpenteye says I'm correct in all my statements in that post, so it might help anyone unclear on the rules.

Even with those understandings, I'm vague on a few things still. I'll query about them later.

-----

The biggest question I have (someone tell Serpenteye) is how many Armies can I have - TOTAL - up and running at once?
This includes all kinds of armies: Militia, Regular, Elite, and Epic. How many total Armies, of all kinds, can I have mobilized at once?

Based on what I read in the rules, it's roughly what my IC currently is, plus a little bit more. But I'm not sure of that.

-----

There is no rule to limit the amount of armies you can have mobilized at the same time. There are limits to how many PLs of militia you can mobilize at any one time but not for how many you can have. Theoretically, you could have your entire population in the army... But, people in the army do not count as civilian population. They do not contribute to your production, since population is a basic factor in the calculation of IC.
As you create Militia and Regular PLs I will subtract population from your territories. 1 PL of militia represents 10'000 people, 1 PL of Regulars represents between 2000 and 4000 people.

However, armies require no maintenance (well, they do but it's abstracted and is only a concern under extreme circumstances).

What must I do to make them go from defective to effective?
How do I get them up to that magical x 1.00 number?
And then, once I've done that, how do I get them up to the theoretical maximum of 90 IC?

And here's the clincher:

If I spend 320 PP on industrialization, your rules say I gain 160 IC for my power, for the next Turn.
But is that 150 multiplied by that nasty x 0.75, so I only get 120 IC of it?!
How do I fix this little problem, so it doesn't happen in the first place, and I get the nice x 1.00 equation instead?
And, then, how do I bump it from the 80 IC (under the magic x 1.00) to the full 90 IC? Obviously, Eclavdra wants her people to produce everything possible, and then some!

-

I am assuming that if I spend PPs to industrialize, it increases the size of my entire power.

Two things: Increase the IC of the province up to the maximum potential of the territory, limited by tech and population. And Counter-infiltrate the territory to make it 100% loyal to you.

Infiltration (those nasty 25% you don't get) reduce your profits from the entire territory, regardless of how much you industrialize it.

Industrialization and Infiltration is done on a territory by territory basis.

The .25, .50., 75, etc, I believe is the amount of control you have over your territory after infiltration. to bring it up to 1.00, you need to counter infiltrate.

In other words, it's not so much that your society is defective, whats happening is part of your industrial capacity is being leached away by another faction, being lost to rebells, or just plain old lazy workers.

Aha. So I must spend 8 points (1/10th of 80) to attempt to reduce the rank of Infiltration by one level, right?
And even then, they've still got a rank or two of Infiltration on my drow. (cries)

I couldn't spend 16 points, and try to overcome 2 ranks of Infiltration at once, could I?
Or spend 24 points, and try to overcome 3 ranks of Infiltration at once?
In other words, kick all the saboteurs and troublemakers out of my drow areas all at once!

I believe it is illegal under the rules to reverse more than 1 rank of Infiltration per turn, though. (cries again.)

-

If the nasty 0.75 multipler is caused by Infiltration, the other two questions are relavent still.
Does my expenditure of PPs to gain ICs next turn get compromised by the 0.75, so that I get fewer ICs, and the Infiltrator get the remainder?
Can I concentrate my industrialization in areas with the x 1.00 modifier, which are uninfiltrated, or must I distribute them across my entire power - I believe the rules say I must indeed distribute them across my entire power: until Serpenteye says otherwise that is what I'm guessing is the case ...

Prepare to cry some more .

The cost of going from 5% to 25% control over a territory is an additional 1/4th of the total IC-value of the territory. The cost of 50% is another 1/4th of the IC-value and 75% and 95% and 100% costs another 1/4 of the IC respectively.

To go from 75% control to 95% control you have to spend 1/4 of the current IC value of the territory. To go from 95% to 100% control over the territory you have to spend an additional 1/4 of the IC of the territory. The total cost in your case would be 20+20=40 ppts.
It's expensive, but roughly comparable to the cost of industrialization.

You can concentrate your industrialization in any territory you want. However, you need sufficient population in the territory in question to avoid having redundant industrial capacity. I haven't made up any rules for determining the cost of moving population, and I probably won't .

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(kills this post for the very good reason doesn't know what he's talking about)

 

[Creamsteak]

I think the numbers are fair (of course, having the strongest starting PL, perhaps "I would" wouldn't I?).

Let's see... there's a number of powers with approximately 40% more IC than me, and 100 less equivelent PL, but they have less elite/epic power. That seems fair from my perspective, they can pump out enough units over two turns (with that starting IC boost) to be stronger than me if all I did was produce units as well. If we compete in IC generating, they win out, but technically I should "win" if I attacked them directly in this case.

The only one I'm really overpowered by is William. However, based on the circumstances and what I know of the player in charge, I find it acceptable.

 

[James Heard]

Just remember your maximum IC is limited by your TL as well, so after a point investing in IC is pointless - I assume you have a phantom IC, limited by the cap from your Tech.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

(kills this post for the very good reason the drow don't know what they are talking about either)