Irreconcilable differences(Forked Thread: When did I stop being WotC's...)

[Hussar]

I think there's a disparity here though, because you're stating that being related to WoW is a bad thing. As I said on the other thread, I've seen numerous posters here comment that new players say 4e reminds them of WoW, but they use it in a positive way. I wasn't here for the D&D vs anime thing, but another poster stated that the discussion taught them how far people would go to deny even the smallest similarities.

The thing is, "WoW-like" isn't a bad thing. WoW makes more money a day then some people will ever see in their lives. As someone who used to play it, it can be insanely fun. And right now, it's popular to the point of breaking though any old cliches about nerds and preps. I've seen football players talk to themselves about their WoW characters. Quite frankly, I'd be surprised if people didn't see something "WoW-like" in a game.

But the crux is, "WoW-like" has been declared both a bad and a good thing at the same time. I've seen the same issue - and very much so - with "the game is more simplified." The funny thing about "The game is more simplified" is that people - the SAME people - will either praise that statement or scowl and put it down all depending on which poster used it. Same statement. But when one poster says "The game is very simplified," what's read is "It's dumbed down." When another poster says "The game is very simplified," what's read is "It's not bloated and overly complex."

So I guess the problem isn't that someone is saying the game is like WoW, the problem is that you're too stuck disagreeing with it to try and see where they're coming from.

The problem is, for 8 years, those of us who liked 3e got to listen to everyone who didn't like 3e compare 3e to video games. Every week. Certainly every month for EIGHT FRIGGIN YEARS 3e=Video gamey.

So, seeing it start again with 4e=WOW is going to hit buttons.

Heck, I'm the one you're talking about with the whole Anime thing. The funny thing was, I didn't deny the anime influence. I welcomed it. But, the only reason to use a comparison to anime for a very large number of posters was as a negative. So, I set out to see how much anime influence there was in D&D WOTC art. And, after a month, we finally got three pieces that had pretty clear influence. Out of thousands of images, we got 3. And not from one person either (which was the point of the game, despite what some might say). So, it's pretty clear that there is no more anime influence in D&D art than there is in western fantasy art in general. And quite possibly less.

And that drove some posters so around the twist, they STILL won't talk to me.

But, to come back to the point, if you look at when people try to use comparisons to WOW as a positive, 100% of the time you will see disclaimers on the post about how it's a positive thing and not meant as a knock against the system. If the comparison was neutral, you wouldn't have to do that. But, it's not. Comparing D&D (in any edition) to a video game is going to be seen as a negative because that's how it's almost universally used.

You can ignore the connotations if you like, but, don't act all wide eyed surprised when people call you on it. In other words, if you post comics featuring 4e players as whiney kindergarteners screaming and crying when they don't get their way, don't be shocked that people might take that as a negative.

 

[doctorhook]

Heh. I certainly appreciate the sentiment. I really don't like Narrativist games though (at all; not even a little), so if that's your thing we'll probably have to leave it at beer and poker.

Beer and poker (and pizza) is a great game!

Even the designers are on record as saying they basically rebuilt the whole 4E system from scratch.

I'm gonna have to ask you to supply a quote on this one.

April 2008: 'Dungeons & Dragons' fourth edition, online tools just around corner | Gaming and Culture - CNET News

"We rebuilt all the character classes from the ground up," <Andy> Collins said...

I'm not sure what this quote is supposed to prove, Delta. I asked you to provide a quote where the designers said that they "basically rebuilt the whole... system from scratch", but instead you provided a quote that only proves that a subsection of the rules was built from the ground up, namely character classes.

Moreover, does it surprise you that they would have to redesign each class in order to fit with the game's design philosophy? Lastly, do you actually find each class conceptually unrecognizable from previous editions of that class? (For example, are Fighters or Wizards or Clerics or Rogues completely different sorts of characters than they had been in 3.5E? I sure don't think so.)

 

[Fifth Element]

The thing is, "WoW-like" isn't a bad thing.

This is true.

But it ignores the context of the comparison. The vast majority of the time on these boards, when someone posts "4E is just like WoW", they don't mean it in a positive (or even neutral) sense. It is almost always used in a dismissive, derogatory way.

 

[Hussar]

This is true.

But it ignores the context of the comparison. The vast majority of the time on these boards, when someone posts "4E is just like WoW", they don't mean it in a positive (or even neutral) sense. It is almost always used in a dismissive, derogatory way.

Hey, I just said that, but, I used more words.

 

[AllisterH]

The reason why I look askance at the 4e is WoW comparison is, "I actually play, 4e, 3e, WoW and Disgaea and I know what I'm talking about"

Keep in mind, reading the PHB and playing the characters are two entirely different things.

4E in play has less resemblance to WoW than 3E. If people said "Hmm, 4E plays like a japanese tactical RPG", THAT'S a valid comparison.

To me, saying 4e is a WoW-clone is like saying Fire is Cold. You have no idea what you're talking about....

 

[Delta]

Moreover, does it surprise you that they would have to redesign each class in order to fit with the game's design philosophy? Lastly, do you actually find each class conceptually unrecognizable from previous editions of that class? (For example, are Fighters or Wizards or Clerics or Rogues completely different sorts of characters than they had been in 3.5E? I sure don't think so.)

I don't play 20 questions. You asked for a quote, you got it. Now I am done with your questioning.

 

[xechnao]

I prefer to think, rather than feel, about reality.

You do not think reality. You feel reality. Thinking is just a tool developing within us regarding communication. You can manipulate the feelings of people by conditioning their thoughts -up to a certain level. It is a usual marketing practice.

 

[Cadfan]

Dude, your quote is majorly weak.

 

[daddystabz]

The REAL D&D these days is Castles & Crusades. I urge you all to try this game. It is what 4th. edition should have been. The best of all editions wrapped up into one. It is the only modern rpg that feels like the glory days of 2e for me but without the shortcomings of 2e.

 

[Irda Ranger]

The REAL D&D these days is Castles & Crusades. I urge you all to try this game. It is what 4th. edition should have been. The best of all editions wrapped up into one. It is the only modern rpg that feels like the glory days of 2e for me but without the shortcomings of 2e.

To paraphrase Weird Al, "Everything you said is wrong."

It is not the real D&D; it is not what 4E "should have been"; and it retains many of the shortcomings of 2E.

• Only D&D is the "real" D&D, and each edition is "Real".
• If 4E contained as little innovation as C&C everyone at WotC would have been deservedly fired.
• Wizards still go from suck to "Ultimate Power" within 10 levels
• Intra-party balance isn't even strived for
• Fighters still suck past 5th level
• Equipment dependency; Can you say it?

Further the SIEGE Engine is a cheap knock-off of the d20 mechanic, except it's mathematically backwards and half as intuitive. I call is "Son of THAC0".

The only improvement C&C brought over 2E was a more unified and sensible saving throw sub-system.

C&C is just as fun as AD&D, which is a compliment I assure you, but let's not get carried away.