Is 4th edition getting soft? - edited for friendly content :)

[Scholar & Brutalman]

Is 4th Ed getting too easy?

Well I don't like to gossip, but I hear she'll sleep with anyone...

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

What about something like Magic Jar? After all, Necros not only deal with life and death, but the soul. It could just leave a corpse, but snatch the soul up in a box - which could be grabbed away and the soul squirted back into the corpse.
I think it's really appropriate for a Necro to play "Gotch'er soul!"

It's thematically appropriate, even archetypal, but they shouldn't be limited to ONLY "gotch'er soul!"

 

[Samnell]

GM: Can't tell you.
Player: What! Why NOT?
GM: Because your NEXT PC might open that door.
Player: ...

I used to laugh about the absurdness of it (the no-save, instant death, didn't even get to see it death) but I'm starting to wonder if there are DMs here that not only would use that, but find it an appropriate challenge in D&D...

I played with one of those DMs back in 2002. Every dungeon had a no-save, instant-death, not telling you how trap. The only think you're missing is the rule that you always start back at first level with zero XP.

Yes, this did amount to "Poof! you're dead! ha! start over." When I suggested that this was pretty punishing, his wife (!) informed me in a rather long rant that unless he actually took me over his knee and spanked me, nothing the guy was doing could be counted as punishment.

This is why I no longer seek out gaming groups. I get my fix online.

 

[Seeten]

Is 4th Ed getting too easy?

Well I don't like to gossip, but I hear she'll sleep with anyone...

4th Edition - My Kind of Gal.

 

[HeinorNY]

Save or die need to go, so I don't have to hear anymore people inferring they are mature because they like save or die spells.That's a good reason enough.

Plus, I love my characters, I don't want them to die like that. I want them to die heroic deaths, after a great battle, sacrificing themselves to save someone, etc.

And I also don't want the BBEG to die like that too. They need to go with pain and lots of beating.

I want mechanics to help me create great heroic stories and not to create an "extreme" game for the sakes of being "extreme".

 

[Psion]

Save or die need to go, so I don't have to hear anymore people inferring they are mature because they like save or die spells.That's a good reason enough.

Plus, I love my characters, I don't want them to die like that. I want them to die heroic deaths, after a great battle, sacrificing themselves to save someone, etc.

So, facing down a lich wielding save-or-die spells you know could snuff your life out at any moment is not heroic? To me, forging on when the risk is great is the essence of heroic.

I do agree such things are best left for crucial encounters. What this says to me is that bodaks and catoblepas suck, not "save or die" sucks.

The mantra of 3e was "options not restrictions." For reasons similar to the above, I never put "instant death poison" traps in my games... because I thought people who did were silly to do so, and then complain about how save or die sucks. It's like the classic groucho marx joke "Doc, it hurts when I do that." "Don't do that!"

But yeah, I like those moments when I can make the players feel as if their character's lives could be snuffed out at any time. I want the option.

Options not restrictions. That was the wise mantra of 3e. And from the way things are looking, the wisdom that 4e lacks.

 

[bowbe]

Seems people might be missing something that was brought to my attention recently about all the save or die-ness

If you have condition tracks and hit points blah blah and you no longer roll saving throws because the spellcaster is rolling to "beat" your "static" "magical" defense... and that spellcaster happens to be higher level than the PC because he is the "BBG" and has all the appropriate feats for "improved crits"... just like the PCs do... it is virtually the SAME as Save or die.

In other words like in star wars if the sith lord has dominate powers, and he has his dominate powers buffed and rolls well... guess what? Your dominated.

I have no doubt loopholes in the new editions of the rules will allow for exactly the same action with uber spells.

Sure they don't say "save or die" anymore but really whats the difference if you get critted by a wizard with say "improved crit level 7 lighting bolt" That shoves your condition track to the "dead" threshold and rolling the save yourself?

None. Someone else just rolled your save for you. Its semantic. You don't roll the save because someone else virtually "rolls" a magical attack. Or you roll your own save after someone says "I cast slay living."

Ok... one difference. With the talents and feat stacks that are inevitable in 4e your much less likely to survive someone else rolling against your static magic save than you would have been rolling your own traditional saving throw.

Bottom line, your precious PC or BBG is just as dead.

Case

 

[Shroomy]

Options not restrictions. That was the wise mantra of 3e. And from the way things are looking, the wisdom that 4e lacks.

I'm not sure that ways to kill your players was what they were thinking of when they coined this phrase.

 

[DandD]

So, facing down a lich wielding save-or-die spells you know could snuff your life out at any moment is not heroic? To me, forging on when the risk is great is the essence of heroic.

How about him being able to snuff out the life of the heroes because of his mighty damaging powers that cause very high damage? Seeing as hitpoints were always meant to be a combined abstraction of combat endurance, some kind of dodging the killing blow, all-time evasion, real hardness, parrying, blocking, heroic guts... What's the point of having heroic abilities to last in combat if one simply circumvents this and kills you simply on a lucky/unlucky dice?

 

[Grog]

Options not restrictions. That was the wise mantra of 3e. And from the way things are looking, the wisdom that 4e lacks.

I agree it's a good mantra, but it can easily be taken too far. After all, under that logic, the designers could put a monster in the game that instantly kills every PC in the party with no save before initiative is even rolled. After all, you don't have to use it, right?

Options are great, but you have to be able to strike a balance somewhere.