D&D 5E Is 5e "Easy Mode?"

[Monayuris]

5E doesnt encourage spell casters. Your play style of only a few super deadly fights per adventuring day does.

It forces the players to nova strike, and full casters (and paladins) do that the best.

Are you one of my players? How do you know what my playstyle is?

I use week long long rests and 8 hour short rests. I have about 6 or so encounters but not all of them are combat (there are very few encounters in my game that force players to have to fight). My last session had 4 actual combats and 1 or 2 non-combat role-playing encounters.

I run a sandbox style West Marches style game where weekly player roster can fluctuate and players meet up in town. The game simply does not support this style of play. There is no realistic way I can have 6-8 combat encounters in a 4 hour session to maintain the needed level of attrition to make the game work, so it is fundamentally broken for my needs.

At 5th level, spell casters can throw fireballs, fly, revivify the dead (and animate them as monsters), surround themselves with spirit guardians and so forth.

And that's largely always been the case in DnD

Magic Users in older editions had significant drawbacks. Sure they had access to some of the spells you mention but there are greater costs which lower the power level.

They received much fewer spell slots. A 5th level magic user has 1 3rd level spell slot, so it is doing one of those spells only. Animate Dead, Raise Dead are 5th level spells and aren't available until 9th level. (I'm not aware of any older edition with revivify or spirit guardians)

They had weak hit points and no access to armor. If they attempt to cast a fireball and are hit and take damage in combat, they lose the spell cast.

They can't cast and move into hiding at the same time.

I've always found it odd that modern D&D has removed all of the drawbacks of spell casters and people are now surprised about CoDzilla or Quadratic Wizards

The classes and the settings are gonzo. Faerun, Mystara, Blackmoor, Greyhawk, Eberron, Athas and Krynn are not Westeross.

I'm not really all that familiar with Faerun, Eberron, Athas or Krynn. I always thought Athas was a low powered setting with very few magical beings... more about survival than flashy magic (same with Krynn). I suppose Faerun and Eberron are more over the top high powered settings.

Mystara had the immortals and decent amount of science fantasy elements but it was BECMI which was pretty much a flatter power curve through the levels (as opposed to 5E's exponential power curve). Greyhawk and Blackmoor to me are closer analogs to Westeros.

The settings are gonzo but not super powered. There is a difference. Mystara may be the exception with things going to level 36 in BECMI, but I thought that was ridiculous as well. I prefer B/X which stopped publication at 14th level.

I'm not against high powered epic play... I just expect epic level play at levels 15+ not 5th.
[/QUOTE]

 

[GameOgre]

Are you one of my players? How do you know what my playstyle is?

What a Twist!

*If he is one of your players im getting more popcorn.
**Please Please be one of his players!

 

[Essafah]

I don't have to as, sadly, it's become real.
You're missing a key step here.

Powerful Sword-and-Sorcery type characters are what D&D characters aspire to become, not what they are to begin with or even partway along. In 5e terms, you're not supposed to be Conan until very high level, and asking for it sooner just sounds greedy.

I think you are missing that in the stories while these type of heroes did grow more powerful it was clear from the beginning that they were not ordinary people in terms of abilities but were above the normal crowd. It mentions for example the Conan was going into battle with various enemy tribes of the Cimmerians and besting grown men at 15 years old. His strength and skill as a warrior set him apart from the inception. Elric was a prodigious intellect far exceeding his peers all his life, and as @Garthanos pointed out he got the ultimate magic weapon Stormbringer in the first book not at the end of the story. This is classic fantasy which even per Gygax is the roots of D&D (according to him moreso than Tolkien) and this is a philosophy the designers have embraced not only in D&D but in many modern games in general, but in D&D since at least 3E. PCs are not Joe Average even if they are just farmer that decided to go out and pick up a sword and fight. Their natural skills and abilities put them head and shoulders above the normal person despite their origins and destiny marks them for greatness. As L. Sprague De Camp said that is what makes fantasy appealing to many people. I don't want to escape into a world being Joe Schmoe where I try hard everyday to minimal impact. I do that daily. It is called a job .

If I want to do that in fantasy I can switch over to Warhammer 4E (or any edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay for that matter) but my D&D is the stuff of heroes whether I am DMing or playing.

For these complaints I have no sympathy whatsoever. Sorry.

Well, you are entitled to your preference but the designers decided and in my opinion rightly so that for good gameplay having effects that take players out of the game for extended period of time is not fun for the game and probably not good for attracting in new players and growing the hobby. Imagine a new player never played D&D before showing up. He have talked her into playing and she is excited. Then for half the game she is stunned and can't do anything or sits watching people but not actually playing this awesome character she built. That person is probably not coming back to the table. Again, in veteran players who grew up playing OSR (although it was just Rpgs not called OSR back in the day) didn't like that kind of stuff. We just didn't know better and had more limited options. This simply would not fly today with most people.

Which is fine if all you want out of it is just that: a game.

But if you want any more then the bad comes with the good.

Yes. I want to have fun and have PCs be cinematic heroes in the game. I want this as player and as a DM I want to provide an atmosphere where my players who scheduled time out of their lives between work, children, etc can come have fun and leave feeling like they escaped the drudgery and problems of the real world and were truly the stuff of legend that shape what goes on around them.

Also the problem of "if you want more you have to take the good with bad is" that in a game that has a random mechanic especially that one that has a wide swing like d20 is that any random variable will almost always overtime sway in favor of the DM vs the players. Hence there will be more bad than good which again kills the fun.

Mistake there lay in failing to up-front warn the player that bad things could and would happen to his character, and to keep the roll-up dice handy.

Incorrect. The problem lies in having a game where the value of PCs lives and more importantly the real life times of player is cheap and they spend time rolling characters incessantly due to deaths or slogging through the game with minimal impact and not having fun and not shining. This totally kills the intent of a "deep role-playing" style RPG even. If you ask me for example to really get into my character and think about his background and likes. Why would I do that in a game where the character can die at the drop of a dime to random f effery. If that is the play style there is only so much story development and thought I am going to put into a character. Now, if you tell me that I am playing a game of swords and sorcery filled with cinematic action and mighty magics and that while I may be born low or high I my abilities put me above the average man and the choices I make will eventually shape the world for good or ill; well I will write a short backstory, think about all kinds of likes and dislikes of my character. With a DM that throws in cockatrices at level 1 and has random traps that make no sense I am not going to put that kind of investment into a PC. Sorry.

Which goes right back to the title and premise of this whole thread: easy mode.

Once you're accustomed to playing when easy is the default it's quite hard to ramp up the difficulty by adding in options, and a DM who does so often has to fight both the players and the system. It is, however, always easier to go the other way - make difficult the default and provide options to ease it off, thus putting the DM in a better light if-when she does.

Fortunately I live in Canada, where even our back-in-the-day generic beers blew those away.
Hoppy beer of any kind is generally vile, and a waste of good resources. Give me a decent pilsener any day. Better yet, give me five or six...

Yeah it is not easy mode so much as it is heroic mode. The problem also with running games like what you want to run is you have to find a very unique group of people who want that kind of buy-in. If even a little under half do not want that the game falls apart. I have seen games come to an end due to a DM wanting to do OSR nostalgia gaming when NO ONE else at the table wanted. Then failed to understand why no one wants to play when he comes up with an idea and it is his turn to run.

I will agree with you that a pilsner (a decent one) can be extremely refreshing and due to their drinkability you must have five or six...maybe even a little more. They cleanse the palate for a nice super bitter IPA

 

[Flamestrike]

There is no realistic way I can have 6-8 combat encounters in a 4 hour session

You dont need to have 6-8 combat encounters in a 4 hour session. You're supposed to have them in the time period between long rests (the adventuring day).

I emphasise this point, seeing as it's been made repeatedly in this thread to no avail.

Seeing as you're using the gritty realism rest variant, this could be a month or more of 'in game' time, and could span several real world game sessions.

If you really must couple 'resource recharge' to the end of the session, simply make the end of every session an automatic Short rest, and every 3rd such rest a Long rest.

 

[Essafah]

The problem is that 3.5 and other modern D&D's shot a little too far over heroic fantasy for my tastes. My 5E group is only level 5 and they can fly at will, have the ability to allow all of them to breathe underwater, see in complete darkness (including magical darkness), not need to consume rations or forage for food, be able to get stealth at any time, they never run out of spells or healing (spell caster heavy party which is something 5E encourages).

To me level 5 should be Game of Thrones not the Avengers.

To each their own. I grew up playing "OSR" games and even back then it was house ruled with things like undead level and state draining being temporary returning at the rate of 1/min per stat/level taken vs the core rules which were they were just gone period. In 2E we rolled 4d6 keep t he highest three and re-roll 1s for stats vs 3d6 in order. Our DM at the time encouraged this because nobody wanted to end up with the stats of Danny Devito going out to be a fighter. That appeals to some people but never anyone I knew, know or play with. The fact that your PCs are capable is a good thing. It means they don't get slogged down by minuatae and the one encounter work day. "Oh we ran out of spells best go back to town or leave the dungeon" and can go on and be mighty avengers achieving goals.

GoT was a politics heavy game. If you wanted your 5th level game to be that. Then focus less on combat and more on role-play and intrigue. As long as you have player buy in to that there should be no problem and fit you bill as fighting abilities and magic doesn't matter so much in role-playing nobles sipping tea while plotting against each other. I personally would not play that style of game. If we don't get a minimum of 4 combat encounters in I feel bad. I like adventure gaming not amateur acting classes. I say that not to be rude as again I do think role-playing is an important element of the game, and if the PCS have fun cool. My point is, GoT is mainly political intrigue and social interaction and in D&D those things are largely independent of class abilities, etc for the most part.

Personally, if I screwed up such that my character dies or is taken out for the encounter, then it is my own darn fault and I probably deserved it. I played poorly and suffered the consequences. I'll root for my other players and work on doing better next time.
Except OSR games aren't Budlight or Coors. They are Belgian Whites when you prefer IPAs. Equally interesting and compelling craft beer that can be appreciated by those who appreciate a great beer. They're just not the kind you personally like. I am someone who loves IPA's but despise Belgians... so it can happen.

No. If the DM is making encounters and not paying attention to the ECL level and throws deadly encounters on the regular that is squarely the DMs fault. The game is built around a certain default level and to make the Pc the heroes via their abilites and to expedite the number of encounters that take place in a game. Unlike in previoius editions encounters in 5E should move fast at all levels of play. The encounters and monster challenges are designed not from the perspective of how easy the monster is to kill but rather how much damage that monster can do to a PC. Even if a monster has relatively low HP if it puts out a decent amount of damage via abilities like pack tactics, etcetera that monster can very quickly over power a party. The difficulty levels are labeled for a reason. The DM determines the difficulty level. Outside of extremely unlucky rolls if the every encounter is difficult and PC dies due to consistently deadly encounters the fault is rightly the DMs.

I would say OSR games are more like Pabst blue ribbon. Something that was good enough to get by at one time but still appreciated by a crowd trying to be hip based on nostalgia of what the beer was . Seriously, I would never completey diss ole Pabst but the hipsters drinking it like they were the Bruce Sprinstein working class cracks me up but on that I will digress!

I've always maintained that if you play OSR games by the rules, these instant death encounters happen a lot less often than public perception seems to imply. I've been running OSR style games for over ten years. Character deaths happen often enough but they usually happen when a player does something foolish or the combat takes a turn for the worse. I've never had a total party kill and I've never had an unpreventable instant death.

The only way character deaths really don't happen that frequently in OSR games if characters are playing it more like survival horror vs fantasy, which is okay in Call of Cthulhu but in D&D I want heroic Sword and sorcery fantasy ie cinematic action, larger than life heroes.[/QUOTE]

 

[tetrasodium]

I'm not really all that familiar with Faerun, Eberron, Athas or Krynn. I always thought Athas was a low powered setting with very few magical beings... more about survival than flashy magic (same with Krynn). I suppose Faerun and Eberron are more over the top high powered settings.

The settings are gonzo but not super powered. There is a difference. Mystara may be the exception with things going to level 36 in BECMI, but I thought that was ridiculous as well. I prefer B/X which stopped publication at 14th level.

I'm not against high powered epic play... I just expect epic level play at levels 15+ not 5th.

Eberron depends on where & when you are setting it. "998yk The Present: Your Adventure Begins..." in khorvaire is roughly somewhere around earth late 1800s-early 1900s depending on what you look at. most of the magic used is 1st to 3rd level (or even lower like a box enchanted to keep the contents at a stable 40 degrees F) but because it applies that magic in the world so widely eberron is lightyears ahead of some other settings that do not If you only look at the developed parts of khorvaire known as the 5 nations. If you look at places like the continent of xendriik or regions like shadowmarches/demon wastes/q'barra/etc then that technology goes away fast & in some ways a few are closer technologically to athas than something like breland. At the same time the 5 nations of khorvaire is not the most advanced civilization ever to exist on eberronor even currently existing on eberron. With that said the fact that (as someone said it earlier) PCs are like the avengers at level 5 or so rather than 15+ causes a lot of problems for adventuring in eberron too.

 

[Garthanos]

With that said the fact that (as someone said it earlier) PCs are like the avengers at level 5 or so rather than 15+ causes a lot of problems for adventuring in eberron too.

The average football player in real life can jump the standing broad jump distance of a strength 20 character sigh the 5e non-caster characters (like a fighter) are barely as awesome at firing a bow at 20 as an 18 year old young woman (ok she is impressive not really knocking her but still its not mythic or legendary nor as good as something Hawkeye can do) ... sheesh 5e characters that arent using magic are about as pedestrian as can be. No they are not the avengers they are barely the guys you knew in high school.

 

[tetrasodium]

The average football player in real life can jump the distance of a strength 20 character sigh the 5e non-caster characters are barely as awesome at firing a bow at 20 as an 18 year old young woman (ok she is impressive not really knocking her but still its not mythic or legendary nor something Hawkeye can do) ... sheesh 5e characters that arent using magic are about as pedestrian as can be. No they are not the avengers they are barely the guys you knew in high school.

uhh... what the heck does jumping have to do with the fact that PC's can faceroll through every encounter just like pretty much every other encounter & after sleeping through the night minus about an hour of walking around to be perfectly 100% recovered from any number of near death experiences over the course of an adventuring day that looks a lot like the massacres that took place in a wolverine or deadpool movie. or the fact that it causes problems with certain settings?

 

[Garthanos]

uhh... what the heck does jumping have to do with the fact that PC's can faceroll through every encounter just like pretty much every other encounter & after sleeping through the night minus about an hour of walking around to be perfectly 100% recovered

Obsession with recovery AND hit points equal meat rears its pretty little head all over again
How long does it take for luck to come back... shrug no clue. But if the the abstraction is killing you I think people should investigate games like RuneQuest. Where yeah hitpoints don't represent heroic vague mostly not physical things.

Or maybe just implement a lingering wounds at zero hit point option sure maybe put a bit more effort into making it interesting than the devs did (because yes i agree most of there variant rules did not really hit the mark for me)

 

[Garthanos]

But sure barely high school class archery makes you so an avenger because hit points simply MUST mean meat points and that is absolutely all it takes to be superheroic awesome. Survival is the only measurement that counts.