Is D&D outdated ?

[hong]

Yes, it is. Go play something else.

 

[Kaffis]

Afrodyte, I believe he is referring to the original poster's assertation that other RPGs are better, where he quotes Star Wars, d20 Modern, Wheel of Time, and Call of Cthulu as examples. All of which (err.. is CoC d20 out yet?) were published most recently *after* D&D's switch to d20, and published under a d20 system. Thus Moe feels justified in saying that those systems quoted were able to borrow on what they saw as done right in D&D's take on the d20 system, and tinkering with what they didn't like in the D&D implementation.

 

[Desdichado]

And what would that be? Other than a few refined skills, the convention of getting a benefit at every level (though NOT the overly generic class structure) and perhaps the additions to the XP sytem, I don't see a whole lot in d20 Modern I would want to see in D&D. Some things are actively bad, like non-lethal combat.

Not just refined skills, refined everything. A much richer (although not necessarily larger) selection of feats, for instance. Much clearer combat discussion and explanation. Cleaned up monster rules, with actual monster creation rules incorporated into the book. Most of these are changes that we already know are making it into the revisions.

The classes being overly generic is certainly a matter of opinion that is -- at best -- controversial (I love 'em, for instance), although I'd agree that the non-lethal damage is a poor substitute for subdual damage, and that seems to have been poorly recieved as well. Still, with the exception of that, d20 Modern is, IMO, a much better game than D&D. It plays the same way, yet takes much less space to explain, is more widely applicable to a broad base of possible settings, and it actually gives you new stuff that D&D, for all it's three books, doesn't do at this point.

 

[Arnwyn]

Don't get me wrong, I like combat (which D&D isn't even the best at) but you expect to see more than that in the "father of RPGs" and D&D seems to offer "less" options than other RPGs (d20) in "more" books.

Actually, I consider "less" books is far more outdated than more books. At the very least, I expect a player's book, and a DMs-only book. Anything less and I will likely avoid that game.

And obviously combat is the most detailed since it is the most complicated thing you can do within an RPG.

 

[jester47]

1 the reason D&D occupies 3 books and not one book is the world. The world is sufficiently different enough from what we understand that is needs more explanation. Not counting monsters, if you reduced the spell selection to somthing like the one offered in CoC and took out a lot of the how to text in the DMG, added a how to make a spell and haow to make a monster sections, you could get D&D to fit into one book about the size of d20M.

Also, d20M and call of CoC dont need sourcebooks really. They take place in this world for the most part and so the best sourcebooks for these games is the Encyclopedia, and all sorts of other reference information found at your local library.

As origins go, D&D is fater of the character ability stat and the hit point and representing perotective devices as a number. The first quasi-effecive skill system that I am aware of is Traveller. However the companies that perfected the skill system are Steve Jackson Games and Game Designers Workshop, most notably Twilight 2000 2nd Ed.

The feats I have no ideq where those came from, probably from super hero RPGs. But it makes sense.

I thin kd20 is THE system. The reason is that WotC was able to get all the people in the right place at the right time from all parts of the industry and to sort of cobble together the best of al systems. Cobbleing all this together to make the ultimate pen and paper RPG as we know it deserved the most recognisable name in the industry: Dungeons and Dragons. In fact when I talk to the non-agmers about RPGs they really don't know what I mean when I say "roleplaying game," they give me this look like "wha?" and then I say Dungeons and Dragons, and all of a sudden they know what I am talking about.

Aaron.

 

[Zappo]

Something that sells more than all the other RPGs combined isn't outdated I reckon.

 

[Terraism]

Plus, you have to consider that those books might not need many of those things, even if they are a part of the setting.

Such as the Wheel of Time sourcebook, for example. Yes, it has all the rules needed to play... but I'd prefer running a game with the PH, DMG, and MM than that. After all, the DMG has, remember, not just rules, but descriptions and examples on how best to apply the rules. And that trumps any of the other d20 books, as far as I can see.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

Hmmm, only one post and he gets all these replies.

Now that is a troll

 

[Shadowlord]

Re: Re: Is D&D outdated ?

That is because combat is the complicated part of rpg's.

Do you want the rules on how to solve a mystery? Search check - DC: 10 + HD of villian.

Character Development: Outside of leveling a character? Do you want rules stating the personality of your character? Ugh.

World Exploration? There is a whole list of swim, climb, and other skill checks that involve physical exploration. Outside of that- it falls onto the dm.

As for d20 D&D not being as "generic" (I would call them lame, not generic) as d20 Modern. Thank the heavens. I could not imagine anything more boring. I look at the base classes of d20 D&D and they seem very generic to me.

SD

Combat "complicated" ? Maybe "boring" due to the depth of the rules. Combat is hardly intense in D&D as it should be, becoming a burden that takes too much time to resolve due to too many options/modifiers to check.

Everything becomes complicated if you address so much space to it as was done to combat. Yet, there's hardly any space devoted to non-combat situations which implies the game is a "combat game plus some other minor stuff". For ex, there aren't decent rules for non-combat XP awards. Those options in the DMG are only suggestions which weren't worked out properly. CRs for monsters & traps only, etc...

You don't solve a mystery with a Search check! In fact, Search is used to find objects, not mysteries (Use Survival for tracking). The beauty of a true puzzle/mystery should not depend on one die roll! there aren't enough lines that tell you how to make the wolrd come alife, how to create that mystical feeling of RPGs.

What benefits do you get for leveling characters? HP, BAB, saves... most are about combat benefits. Look at other RPGs, like Alternity (without Alternity there wouldn't be any 3rd ed d&d !) that offer plenty of traits that define your character "outside of combat potentoal". For ex, the place where you grew up defines a major part of your character.
If these terms are alien to you, you probably did never see the best aspects of RPG and was playing an advanced version of Heroquest.

World Exploration: "...It falls to the DM..." -> Exactly, and what must a DM do without any support ?! Wrld Ex is more than silly skill checks; it's about making the world come alife! It lets players explore the setting and "feel" it.

"Boring", well that's what it is to me if magic grants only combat spells, skills offer too many combat benefits, feats too, leveling granting mostly combat benefits... Hey, an RPG is more than an arena!

 

[hong]

Re: Re: Re: Is D&D outdated ?

there aren't enough lines that tell you how to make the wolrd come alife, how to create that mystical feeling of RPGs.

That would depend on the purity of these lines, surely. The BEST ones go for about $200, same as in town. I suggest rolling them in the dollar bills you saved by downloading the SRD instead of buying the actual rulebooks.

If these terms are alien to you, you probably did never see the best aspects of RPG and was playing an advanced version of Heroquest.

Personally, I am never satisfied until I can roleplay the exact scent and whiff of the baby oil dripping off the shiny, sweating loins of the barbarian on the Heroquest box cover. Rippling muscles, gigantic sword, throbbing... whoops, did I say that out loud?

"Boring", well that's what it is to me if magic grants only combat spells, skills offer too many combat benefits, feats too, leveling granting mostly combat benefits... Hey, an RPG is more than an arena!

I think this thread is a FINE arena, and you're roleplaying most excellently. Kudos, Bugaboo!