Is Dark Sun Coming To D&D?

WotC staff are dropping cryptic hints about campaign settings again! A couple of week ago it was Spelljammer; this time, it's Dark Sun. At Gary Con this year, during a D&D panel, WotC's Mike Mearls said of the psionic Mystic class -- "we don't need that class until we do Dark Sun."

He followed it up with with the usual note that he can't make product announcements and that all settings were part of the multiverse. You can hear the seminar on the Plot Points podcast. "Ben recorded a seminar wherein six game designers who worked on Dungeons and Dragons (Skip Williams, Jon Pickens, Zeb Cook, Ed Stark, Steve Winter, and Mike Mearls) talk about game design. During the talk, current lead designer Mike Mearls may very well have let slip what the next classic D&D game world he will be reviving next!"

Dark Sun was a campaign setting released back in the 1990s, and was a post-apocalyptic desert world called Athas, with psionics in abundance and dark survivalist themes. It made a reappearance in 2010 for D&D 4E.

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[delericho]

Something that just occurred to me about half-giants: We've been trying to think how to balance them against standard 5E PCs.

But that isn't necessary. Half-giants don't need to be balanced against a regular 5E PC; they only need to be balanced against other Dark Sun PCs.

Could be as simple as giving everyone else an extra feat, or starting a level higher.

That said, I'd really rather not. 2nd Ed Dark Sun PCs may be more powerful than standard 2nd Ed PCs, but so too are 5e PCs in general.

Plus, if you boost the PCs, you start messing with the careful balance of the game ( ), have to then boost everything else to match, and it just turns into a pain.

 

[Werebat]

The main problem with Large size is optimization that exploits reach.

Yet this seems something that is easy to balance around.

This is where I feel I am really missing something.

Most of the time, being Large is kind of a DISADVANTAGE. You take up four squares, which seriously inhibits maneuverability in combat (at least, it is a problem at least as often as it is an advantage). The big payoff for being Large in 3rd Edition was Reach, but in 5th Edition most Large things (even humanoid ones) do not have Reach.

I liked the concept of Powerful Build in 3e, but I think many people did not understand that being Medium with PB was actually SUPERIOR to just being Large in all ways save Reach. With Reach off the table, 3e Powerful Build would have been hands down more powerful than just being Large.

And with Reach off the table, exactly what is it about being Large that is so unbalancing in 5e? I get that some weapons might do more damage, sure, but again there are maneuverability issues, there is the fact that certain spells just won't work as well on you, there is the fact that when you fall unconscious your fellow PCs might not be able to just pick you up and stumble off with you. And in Dark Sun, of course, there is the matter of needing a LOT more food and water - if that is a significant part of the setting (and it should be), your Half Giant is going to be dealing with the threat of suffering Exhaustion levels a lot more often than the other PCs.

As for why going the Goliath or Firbolg route isn't satisfactory -- for me, it bugs me that HALF giants would be anything but somewhere in between Medium and Huge (the size of an Athasian giant).

"But Medium with Powerful Build is somewhere in between Medium and Huge..."

Yeah, but it's kind of lame. Look, the original Dark Sun books made it clear that Half Giant PCs viewed the world differently than everyone else specifically because they were so big, and could do things that PCs of other races wouldn't even think of. Parking your cart is no big deal when you can lift it up and move it to wherever you want it to be. Maybe it's just that it screws with the fantastic old Dark Sun artwork. I just don't like it.

And has been said before, any advantage it would give in Athas can be counterbalanced by beefing up the other PC races, which is exactly how the original Dark Sun handled things (imperfectly, I'll admit, but it tried).

Given the setting I'd be more worried about the power imbalance inherent in the Thri-Kreen, at any size. Natural armor, natural attacks, natural venom - and the ability to go without food and water for a LOT longer than everyone else. Not a big thing in the Realms, but in Athas...

 

[Werebat]

Plus, if you boost the PCs, you start messing with the careful balance of the game ( ), have to then boost everything else to match, and it just turns into a pain.

That's... exactly what 2e Dark Sun did. The Gith, for example (who were basically the orcs of the setting) had 3 hit dice IIRC, and some kind of special leap attack, in addition to possible psionic ability.

 

[Werebat]

I'm fine with goliaths being stand-ins for half-giants. I don't think we lose anything by not having Large-sized half-giants.

Of course we do. We lose Large-sized PCs. We lose the problem of feeding and watering your half giant (power at a price). We lose the elegance of half giants being in between humans and giants in size. We lose half giants being able to peep into second story windows and lift their fellow PCs up over ten foot walls. And most egregiously, we lose the halfling and half giant PCs playing "Master Blaster".

 

[delericho]

That's... exactly what 2e Dark Sun did.

Yes, I know. I'd rather they didn't go down that route again.

If they really, really must give a power boost, they should do it by starting everyone at a higher level (and nothing else). That way, everything automatically scales. Plus, it makes all those game elements they introduce for DS easier to transplant to other settings - which presumably has to be at least a consideration for them (given their 100k+ units sales goal).

All IMO, of course.

 

[Dausuul]

That said, I'd really rather not. 2nd Ed Dark Sun PCs may be more powerful than standard 2nd Ed PCs, but so too are 5e PCs in general.

Comparing 2E PCs to 5E PCs is meaningless. They're radically different systems. You can't just look at the numbers on the character sheet and assume they mean the same thing.

Plus, if you boost the PCs, you start messing with the careful balance of the game ( ), have to then boost everything else to match, and it just turns into a pain.

What would you actually have to change? Monster CRs and encounter guidelines? They're broken anyway, an excuse to fix them would be just what the doctor ordered. And I can't offhand think of anything else you'd need to adjust.

 

[Werebat]

Good question - I had to check that one!

Thri-kreen are Large in the Monstrous Manual. They don't seem to appear in either the first or second MC appendices, nor are they in the first Dark Sun boxed set or the first Dark Sun MC appendix. They do appear in the second Dark Sun appendix, where they are large.

The Tohr-kreen appear in the first DS appendix (Large), with several further variants appearing in the second (a mix of Medium and Large). I don't have the revised DS box.

However...

after some further searching, I've found the original entry for them in 2nd Ed - they're in the first Forgotten Realms appendix. And they are, indeed, Medium-size there.

I think you could make a strong argument for Thri-Kreen being Medium with Powerful Build. Which would not honestly bother me.

 

[delericho]

Comparing 2E PCs to 5E PCs is meaningless. They're radically different systems. You can't just look at the numbers on the character sheet and assume they mean the same thing.


What would you actually have to change? Monster CRs and encounter guidelines? They're broken anyway, an excuse to fix them would be just what the doctor ordered. And I can't offhand think of anything else you'd need to adjust.

I'm afraid, ultimately, it's a preference. And it's my preference, mostly, because it's my preference. Sorry, I know that's not terribly helpful.

I think you could make a strong argument for Thri-Kreen being Medium with Powerful Build. Which would not honestly bother me.

That would be fine by me. The size category of Thri-kreen isn't a hill I'd be willing to die on.

 

[Werebat]

Yes, I know. I'd rather they didn't go down that route again.

If they really, really must give a power boost, they should do it by starting everyone at a higher level (and nothing else). That way, everything automatically scales. Plus, it makes all those game elements they introduce for DS easier to transplant to other settings - which presumably has to be at least a consideration for them (given their 100k+ units sales goal).

All IMO, of course.

I see what you are saying. But given the realities of Dark Sun, they are going to have to come up with a new Monster Manual for it anyway, so that aspect is moot.

And Dark Sun wouldn't be Dark Sun without everyone getting a wild talent. Which I think would be best done with psionic cantrips, mechanics-wise.

Again, I see what you are saying, but to me part of the warp and woof of Dark Sun has always been powerful PCs living in a crapsack world. I can't see them making, say, Athasian elves no more powerful than the elves in the PHB. The point was that the world went to Hell and the only things that could survive there now were those that were extremely competitive.

 

[Werebat]

I'm thinking about some of the quirky hills the devs seemed willing to die on in previous editions. One thing that always kind of bugged me was that Athasian elves were no faster than anyone else. Yeah, I know, they were DISTANCE runners, but still. Every other description of them mentioned how they were "fast" and "fleet-footed" and difficult to catch. It's like whoever wrote the setting was paranoid about giving them even a small boost to movement, despite swift running being a huge part of who and what they were.

Now in 5e, we clearly have no problem with giving some elves a bonus to their Move -- and this bonus is much more powerful in 5e than it would have been in 2nd!